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12 Very Ominous Warnings About What A U.S. Debt Default Would Mean For The Global Economy

Ominous Clouds - Photo posted on Instagram by annekejongA U.S. debt default that lasts for more than a couple of days could potentially cause a financial crash unlike anything that the world has ever seen before.  If the U.S. government purposely wanted to damage the global financial system, the best way that they could do that would be to default on U.S. debt obligations.  A U.S. debt default would cause stocks to crash, would cause bonds to crash, would cause interest rates to soar wildly out of control, would cause a massive credit crunch, and would cause a derivatives panic that would be absolutely unprecedented.  And that would just be for starters.  But don’t just take my word for it.  These are the things that top financial experts all over the planet are saying will happen if there is an extended U.S. debt default.

Because they are so close together, the “government shutdown” and the “debt ceiling deadline” are being confused by many Americans.

As I wrote about the other day, the “partial government shutdown” that we are experiencing right now is pretty much a non-event.  Yeah, some national parks are shut down and some federal workers will have their checks delayed, but it is not the end of the world.  In fact, only about 17 percent of the federal government is actually shut down at the moment.  This “shutdown” could continue for many more weeks and it would not affect the global economy too much.

On the other hand, if the debt ceiling deadline (approximately October 17th) passes without an agreement that would be extremely dangerous.

And if the U.S. government is eventually forced to start delaying interest payments on U.S. debt (which could potentially happen as soon as November), that would be absolutely catastrophic.

Once again, just don’t take my word for it.  The following are 12 very ominous warnings about what a U.S. debt default would mean for the global economy…

#1 Gerald Epstein, a professor of economics at the University of Massachusetts Amherst: “If the US does default, that will make the Lehman Brothers bankruptcy look like a cakewalk”

#2 Tim Bitsberger, a former Treasury official under President George W. Bush: “If we miss an interest payment, that would blow Lehman out of the water”

#3 Peter Tchir, founder of New York-based TF Market Advisors: “Once the system starts to break down related to settlement and payments, then liquidity disappears, as we saw after Lehman”

#4 Bill Isaac, chairman of Cincinnati-based Fifth Third Bancorp: “We can’t even imagine all the things that might happen, just like Henry Paulson couldn’t imagine all the bad things that might happen if he let Lehman go down”

#5 Jim Grant, founder of Grant’s Interest Rate Observer: “Financial markets are all confidence-based. If that confidence is shaken, you have disaster.”

#6 Richard Bove, VP of research at Rafferty Capital Markets: “If they seriously default on the debt, what we’re really talking about is a depression”

#7 Chinese vice finance minister Zhu Guangyao: “The U.S. is clearly aware of China’s concerns about the financial stalemate [in Washington] and China’s request for the US to ensure the safety of Chinese investments.”

#8 The U.S. Treasury Department: “A default would be unprecedented and has the potential to be catastrophic: credit markets could freeze, the value of the dollar could plummet, U.S. interest rates could skyrocket, the negative spillovers could reverberate around the world, and there might be a financial crisis and recession that could echo the events of 2008 or worse”

#9 Goldman Sachs: “We estimate that the fiscal pull-back would amount to 9pc of GDP. If this were allowed to occur, it could lead to a rapid downturn in economic activity if not reversed quickly”

#10 Simon Johnson, former chief economist for the IMF: “It would be insane to default, but it’s no longer a zero-percent probability”

#11 Warren Buffett about the potential of a debt default: “It should be like nuclear bombs, basically too horrible to use”

#12 Bloomberg: “Anyone who remembers the collapse of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. little more than five years ago knows what a global financial disaster is. A U.S. government default, just weeks away if Congress fails to raise the debt ceiling as it now threatens to do, will be an economic calamity like none the world has ever seen.”

A U.S. debt default could be the trigger for the “nightmare scenario” that so many people have been writing about in recent years.  In fact, it could greatly accelerate the timetable for the inevitable economic collapse that is coming.  A recent Yahoo article described some of the things that we would likely see in the event of an extended U.S. debt default…

A default would upend money markets, destroy bond funds, slam the brakes on lending, cause interest rates to spiral, make our banks insolvent, and deal a blow to our foreign trading partners and creditors around the globe; all of which would throw the U.S. and the world into economic disarray.

And of course stocks would crash big time.  Deutsche Bank’s David Bianco believes that if the U.S. government starts missing interest payments on U.S. Treasury bonds, we could see the S&P 500 go down to 850 by the end of the year.

There would be almost immediate panic among ordinary Americans as well.  In fact, it is being reported that some banks are already stuffing their ATM machines will extra cash just in case…

With just 10 days left to raise the debt ceiling and congressional Republicans threatening to force the government to default on its obligations, banks are taking some dramatic steps to prepare for the economic chaos that would result should the brinkmanship continue.

The Financial Times reports that one major U.S. bank has started stuffing its automatic teller machines with extra cash in preparation for a possible bank run from panicked depositors. The New York Times reports that another bank is weighing a plan to advance funds to customers who rely on Social Security and other government payments that could stop in the event of a default.

Let’s hope that cooler heads will prevail and that a U.S. debt default will be avoided.

Unfortunately, it appears that the Democrats are absolutely determined not to be moved from their current position a single inch.  They have decided to refuse to negotiate and demand that the Republicans give them every single thing that they want.

And who can really blame them for adopting that strategy?  After all, it has certainly worked in the past.  Whenever Democrats have stood united and have refused to give a single inch, the Republicans have always freaked out and caved in eventually.

Will this time be any different?

The funny thing is that once upon a time, Barack Obama was adamantly against any increase in the debt limit.  The following comes courtesy of Zero Hedge

Obama Debt Ceiling

But now Obama says that it is so unreasonable to be opposed to a debt limit increase that any negotiations are out of the question.

So which Obama is right?

If the Democrats will not negotiate, a debt default could still be avoided if the Republicans give in.

And that is what they always do, right?

Perhaps not this time.  Just check out what John Boehner had to say on Sunday

“I, working with my members, decided to do this in a unified way,” the speaker said — with demands to defund, delay or otherwise alter the Affordable Care Act.

Boehner had expected that the Obamacare fight would come during the next vote to raise the debt ceiling, “but, you know, working with my members, they decided, let’s do it now,” he said. “And the fact is, this fight was going to come, one way or another. We’re in the fight. We don’t want to shut the government down. We’ve passed bills to pay the troops. We passed bills to make sure the federal employees know that they’re going to be paid throughout this.”

“You’ve never seen a more dedicated group of people who are thoroughly concerned about the future of our country,” he said of House Republicans. “It is time for us to stand and fight.”

But will the Republicans really stand and fight?

In the past, betting on the intestinal fortitude of the Republican Party has been a loser every single time.

So we’ll see.  Boehner insists that this time is different.  Boehner insists that he is not going to fold like a 20 dollar suit this time.  In fact, when he was asked if the U.S. government was headed toward a debt default if Obama continued to refuse to negotiate, Boehner made the following statement

“That’s the path we’re on.”

The mainstream media has certainly been placing most of the blame at the feet of the Republicans, but at least the U.S. House of Representatives has been trying to get an agreement reached.  The House has voted 26 times since the Senate last voted.  Harry Reid has essentially shut the Senate down until the Republicans fold and give the Democrats exactly what they want.

The funny thing is that this could probably be solved very easily.  If the Democrats agreed to a one year delay to the individual mandate, the Republicans would probably jump at it.  And because of epic technical failures, hardly anyone has been able to get signed up for Obamacare anyway.  So a one year delay would give the Obama administration time to get their act together.

Unfortunately, the Democrats seem absolutely obsessed with the idea that they will not give the Republicans one single inch.  They seem to believe that this will be to their political benefit.

But this is a very dangerous game that they are playing.  The U.S. government must roll over 441 billion dollars of short-term debt between October 18th and November 15th.

If a debt ceiling increase is not in place by that time, it will send interest rates soaring.  Borrowing costs for state and local governments, corporations, and ordinary Americans will go through the roof and economic activity will be hit really hard.

And as detailed above, we could potentially be looking at a financial crash that would make 2008 look like a Sunday picnic.

So let us hope for a political solution soon.  That will at least kick the can down the road for a little bit longer.

If a debt default were to happen before the end of this year, that would bring a tremendous amount of future economic pain into the here and now, and the consequences would likely be far greater than any of us could possibly imagine.

  • MichaelfromTheEconomicCollapse

    I am afraid that this article is going to upset a lot of true believers in the false red vs. blue paradigm.

    Michael

    • Syrin

      Peter Schiff thinks a US dollar collapse is very likely and would lead to a global economic boom as other currencies gain massive strength relative to the dollar.

      And yeah, no red/blue

      Two parties: Authoritarian and Libertarian

      Authoritarian party makes up 100% of the democrats with extreme authoritarians and 95% of the republicans.

      • Rodster

        He lost me with that theory. A collapse of the USD would bring the world’s economy to its knees with the possibility of halting commerce of any kind.

        • tacoma

          Wrong. US dollar is used only in about 35% of global transactions, and even less as reserve store of value.

          A default of payment by the Treasury will hit US bond value hard but that’s about it. Because everything else will automatically adjust. And there are a lot of ways and other hard currencies to adjust to. The world will simply proceed to conduct business more in other currencies. But the world will demand a lot more in USD to pay for the same thing made in the USA.

          • Jacob

            You’re missing the point. A US dollar collapse isn’t the problem on a wide scale. It is what the US dollar collapse would do on a local scale, and how the effect of the local scale would effect the economy of the world: since the US are the largest consumers in the world. If we see a massive reduction in buying power of the US dollar, there will no longer be products bought and thus companies will take a very large hit on their sales, and may, with their debts, go under as well – regardless of their origins. The US also sends mass amounts of aid to other countries, which would be restricted as well, such as money, gas, food, and weapons. What happens to Israel or Japan without us? If the US dollar collapses, and with it, US supremacy, many other countries, not all, will fall as well. The ramifications of US debt default is the start to globalization of the worlds monetary structure. Prepare for the days ahead.

    • GSOB

      When the government’s boot is on your throat, whether it is a
      left boot or a right boot is of no consequence. – Gary Lloyd

      • Gay Veteran

        great quote

    • DownWithLibs

      Aren’t we going to smack this fan at some point in the future anyway? Isn’t this what we have been prepping for? Granted it would be nice if it happened a long time from now, but this may be the moment we have been getting ready for. (Don’t get me wrong, I’m concerned too).

    • davidmpark

      Not me. :) Just reaping what they’re sowing – and it’s a BIG harvest!

    • MeMadMax

      Let it all burn…

    • markthetruth

      Nope Because together they make PURPLE HAZE !!!

      the end…

    • nekksys

      Agreed.

  • Malcolm Reynolds

    I heard someone mention somewhere in comments the reason democrats aren’t going to give an inch on this because they need the taxes this is going to generate to keep the govt afloat. .

    • DownWithLibs

      Right you are, sir!

  • JG

    Good article, I always enjoy your natural law perspective.

    The USA will not default. The Federal tax “revenue” each month, is about $225 Billion, the debt payment are about $25 billion, there is more than enough to pay the debt, and everything else that needs to get done. The rest, the other 50% should be cut anyway, so let it get cut right now. No more wars, no more financial aide to other countries, no more illegal immigration, welfare, TSA, FDA, NSA, CIA, we live in a police state and it needs to be defunded.

    The Tea Party is America’s voice of reason, who know that you cannot live on your credit card forever, rolling over payments……..that you cannot consume more than you produce, it is immoral, Obama said it himself.

    The USA will not go bankrupt, it will just have to cut, cut out the dead wood, people do not like this, either do I, but it must be done.

    • GSOB

      The US is already bankrupt.

    • not me

      If the debt payment is 25 billion, how long will it take to pay off 16 trillion?

      • tacoma

        Longer than the time the USA has existed as a country.

    • sd mule

      The Tea Party is another corrupted group of politicians. They will be of little impact, the system is too strong!! The sheer volume of corrupt money has already overwhelmed them. They have already been castrated.

    • tacoma

      Ha ha ha!!! If the government can cut they would have done it decades ago. They can’t and you’re still dreaming. They are waiting for the people to cut for them. It’s called a revolution.

  • mleblanc138

    What’s going to happen to Silver metal if all of this happens? I imagine it skyrocketing, but me holding on to it still because the Dollars I could sell it for would be getting more worthless day by day.

  • Jim Davis

    I’m not really much of a prepper, but I am going to make sure I’ve got a decent amount food, water and other supplies stocked up over the next couple of weeks. A US government debt default could cause a major unwinding in our financial-steroid driven economy.

    • cateye

      Better late than never.

    • tacoma

      USA requires a general downsize, or unwinding as you call it, of at least 10% in order to match the real economy by subtracting out the trillions of fake dollars (Treasury bonds bought by the Federal Reserve). You can call it Depression II. But I call it mathematical certainly due to compliance to the laws of physics.

  • K

    Michael to sum up, a debt default would cause utter chaos. Interesting, who would profit from chaos? The puppet masters claim, out of chaos, order. A new world order. All the ammo, all the food, all the weapons, and the Mraps. All to be in place by October 1, 2013. Is the debt default the triggering event? Maybe all of this is one big coincidence. And then again maybe it is not.

    • Captain Obvious

      hard to believe it is not.

    • Syrin

      This the part that makes no sense to me. The powers that be already have all the money and power !! So all that is left is the destruction of society. What do they gain by turning America into Detroit nation wide? Where do they plan on spending all their money if they’ve decimated society and made every place a dangerous cess pool. It’s like having diarrhea in your own hot tub, repeatedly. Why ?

      • davidmpark

        There’s a few schools of thought in that. Problem is that each theory is about as extraordinary as the next.

        Maybe, it’s not really about the money…

      • alexo

        Well societies have been torn down before in history and yet the elite still managed to use their profits!

        • Josh

          Yet, gold will be paving stones in the New Jerusalem. The first will be last and the last will be first. This also applies to the global elite now; they will be on the bottom if they are there at all.

      • K

        No they do not have either all the money or all the power they want. These are very sick individuals. No amount of wealth is enough. And they seek the power of life or death. Think of the tyrants of old. If you looked at them wrong, they killed you. No questions asked. I think it is very difficult for a mentally normal person, to understand the level of depravity they are capable of. Whatever comes to your mind when you see the word evil. Then multiply it by 10. That is what they seek.

        • Syrin

          Perhaps you are right. They want absolute utter power over the entire world. But why s*** in their in their own pool, to quote an old expression? At some point, don’t you want a society that is safe and producing things worth spending all that money on?

          • K

            Because we are in that pool with them. They can leave we can not. They have yachts in the 4 to 5 hundred foot range. Very remote islands, have seen a bit of a building boom. Areas like Switzerland, would be mostly untouched. For the lower level minions that will serve them. You now know what those vacant cities in China are for. Their idea of paradise is with 80% of us gone. Set the various groups at each other throats. During winter cause shortages of Power, fuel, and food. In just 1 year how many people are already gone? Hard to believe people that evil exist? I assure you they do.

        • Hammerstrike

          Printing the dollar have been their power base in the US since 1913, if the dollar becomes worthless, then they suffer an enormous blow.

          Take Detroit, Camden and (East) St-Louis, can these cities afford a police state?

      • jaxon64

        One must understand the utter disdain and contempt that the elitists have for the average person.
        They consider us “the unwashed masses”, “useless eaters and breeders”, a herd of animals that needs to be culled before the finite resources of THEIR planet are used up.
        Read up on the eugenics movements and early 1900’s progressives. The pro-genitors of modern liberalism and progressivism were using everything from sterilizations to the formation of planned parenthood to try and rein in the consuming populace.
        What do they have to gain? Civil unrest, disease and starvation that kills masses and a more easily controlled smaller population. The remainder would be more compliant with their servitude as long as they had food, security and the other basics—I honestly believe that this is their ultimate objective.
        Having said this, I don’t believe the time of this period of great tribulation is quite here yet–but very soon.

        • Human

          Satan hates mankind! They worship Satan. The bankster families think they will be the gods of this earth. Read the bible, it’s all in there.

          • watchmanonthetower

            You are mostly correct, Human. Did not Satan want full and total control from the very beginning… even from the First World Age? To usurp God’s throne and BE Him? What does it mean to have total control? It is to be like God. It is, and has always been, Satan’s #1 goal, when he attempted to subvert all of God’s children during that First World Age, and only came away with 1/3 of them (it is the core of the ‘inequity’ God found in him.) Instead of deleting all those souls that followed Satan, God shifted into this, the Second World Age; an age of corporeal bodies, and a blanking of the memories of the1st Age…that’s where Genesis 1:1 starts.
            So, yes; Satan hates mankind – the 2/3 that did not blindly follow him. The battle for souls rages on still today.

            Also, Barry is not THE Anti-Christ (capital A) – but he sure is an archetype (small ‘a’ antichrist) and embodies the darkness and intent of Satan.

            What is transpiring now has already been written, and there isn’t anything we, as Humans, can (or should) do about it. Just be ready when the hour arrives, and allow the Holy Spirit to speak through you…and you’ll be just fine.

            Thanks.
            ~Watchman
            Matt 24/42

          • Robert Mccutcheon

            you are sure right.
            and the third earth age is fast coming’

          • watchmanonthetower

            Indeed, Robert. There will be a fair amount of muck and mire to tread through before then, however. In my mind, this is a portion of the test of Faith we will all be a part of when the final reel plays out. Not accepting the False Christ when he stands in the Holy place will be final test. The “Instead-of Christ” (-Anti…) is the Abomination of Desolation spoken of on that day: he may look like Christ, but to those with eyes to see and ears to hear, he will sound like a dragon roaring. Those under strong delusion… well…I don’t want to give away the ending. (I’m smiling…you know the ending. :))

            ~Watchman
            Matt. 24/42

          • Human

            We are to do all we can, then stand! I have a God given responsibility to protect my family. I will do so, even unto death! God grant me the grace to stand and forgive me my sins. So be it!

          • Josh

            How do you get out of the Bible that the remaining 2/3rds of God’s angels who stayed faithful are now ‘souls’ living in human bodies with memories wiped? FYI, soul as correctly translated in the bible is your physical body. A soul is not some spirit like thing that temporarily inhabits a body. There is a spirit of man that gives us higher intellect and thought above the animals, and there is a portion of God’s Spirit (his mind/power) given at Baptism. But we do not have immortal souls with wiped memory. The concept of soul (body) and spirit of man or Spirit of God are widely misunderstood and confused ideas in modernity and through history. That is just one reason why Satan is winning now because he is the “deceiver of the whole world”.

          • watchmanonthetower

            Sorry you misunderstood me, Josh. That was my fault; I got a bit lazy with my verbiage. I was using the word ‘souls’ much the same way the airline industry does when indicating ‘individuals’. As to the literal or intrinsic meaning of the word ‘soul’ – I am not familiar with the explanation you’ve outlined here, but it warrants some study.

            As to Satan being the “deceiver of the whole world” – that much is obvious – it’s his motivation I’m interested in.

            Thanks.
            ~Watchman

      • Human

        Georgia Guide Stones, kill off 6.5 billion useless eaters. look it up!

      • Hammerstrike

        You are correct.

        The collapse is but a consequence of their rule, not their objective.

        Detroit cannot afford a police state.

        Just imagine getting enough tax money out of Detroit´s citizenry to pay for a dozen predatopr drones, a fleet of armored cars and half a dozen abram tanks? Bit hard?? Thought so!

        Reverse brain-.drain, when all those foreign and even national scientists, engineers and technicians starts leaving en-masse, say goodbye to drone strikes.
        Control over printing the dollar have been their power base since 1913, if the dollar becomes worthless…

    • TooLittleTooLate

      If it is the, “event”, it would have to be a plan. To not make interest payments on rolled over debt would be a choice not a necessity.

      You hear all the hype spewing from all the bloated bags in D.C. but, in reality, they’re just upset that their ability to reward their high power lobbies when the cash desk is closed has been hampered.

    • clementinesalmassi321

      my Aunty Bailey just got a twelve month old Nissan Murano
      CrossCabriolet SUV by working part-time off of a laptop… you can try here
      J­a­m­2­0­.­ℂ­o­m

  • Boo-urns

    I wonder if you got permission to use that photo…

  • Mike s

    So Michael…..now u promote raising debt ceiling and to continue printing? And now kicking can down road is good?

    • Jordan Helwig

      Thankyou for your comment. I don’t know why Michael is promoting raising the debt ceiling. Years of this action is exactly what caused this current crisis in the first place. Because of what we have already allowed to happen, economic pain is now inevitable. And the longer we put it off the worse it will get. Remember the intention is to falsely prop up the economy while making us debt slaves. The reason they have not already crashed the economy is because they have not created as much debt as they desire. We have to quit lying to ourselves as if this economy is even real. I always love reading Michael’s articles but I don’t know what he is getting at in this one.

      • mike s

        thanks for reply.well said. sound likd mike is willing to put off pain instead of getting it over with.

    • Tim

      No, I don’t think that’s what he’s advocating.

      • TooLittleTooLate

        Me either.

        The fact is that if we do not raise it, decisions that we all know are politically impossible would have to occur to keep from defaulting.

        Simply put, we’re backed into a fiscal corner. The decisions to get us out are easy to see but impossible to accomplish.

        They require brutal honesty, hard line resolve and a LOT of hard work.

        All of those things are lost on a voting public that has been numbed with bread and circuses.

    • tacoma

      So Micheal is confused too. Endless piling up of debt or not? This is what a financial black hole can do to otherwise sane people.

      • Robert

        If your area is like mine, you just received your property tax notice. Make sure you get that paid before the crash. Do not give them any excuse for taking your property away.

  • DDuana

    Enough is enough. Boehner needs to man-up and stop this Tea-Party shenanigan right now and put it to a vote. There is more than enough votes to raise the debt ceiling and avoid a worldwide depression.

    • Libsare Ajoke

      The mainstream media has certainly been placing most of the blame at the feet of the Republicans, but at least the U.S. House of Representatives has been trying to get an agreement reached. The House has voted 26 times since the Senate last voted. Harry Reid has essentially shut the Senate down until the Republicans fold and give the Democrats exactly what they want.

      • DownWithLibs

        Last I saw it was called checks and balances.

      • jaxon64

        yes…Harry Reid reminds me of that spoiled rich kid with the nice football or basketball. Essentially, all the others had to play by his rules and give him everything he wanted during the game or he would refuse to allow anyone to play at all.
        There never was any common sense negotiating or comprimise with that punk–either he was in charge and got what he wanted or everyone had to sit on the sideline until they acquiesced.

    • nuwriter

      The problem is not the debt ceiling… the problem is and always has been the runaway debt. Until you figure that out, you’re the one who needs to shut the f up. We don’t need toadies for the government, praising their every move. That’s what caused the current problem.

  • KRC

    Please explain: debt service, like entitlements, are “mandatory” spending… bond holders have a spot near the head of the line while discretionary spending is at the back.

    So how can we not service our debt given bondholders pretty much have first claim to treasury revenue?

    • Tim

      You’re right that the Treasury would have to prioritize payments. But if the debt limit is not raised other payments will not go out. That could affect social insurance programs like Social Security, Medicare, etc. We have a spending problem, but making the changes necessary to get this nation onto a sustainable fiscal path would literally collapse the economy. There’s no way out of this situation that doesn’t involve a lot of pain for all.

  • seads

    My son works for a large hotel chain. The last time he got paid, his check was about $100.00 short. He asked about it, and they told him that it was the implementation of Obamacare he was paying for. What’s that about. Has the government found another way to tax folks?
    I don’t care much about paying the employees of the gov. but that is like a slap in the face. Ocrappy care!

    • TooLittleTooLate

      They implemented about 150 new agencies of middle men… for our own good and whatnot.

  • Renee

    This is a nightmare. All of our tax dollars are being spent by these so called politicians and mean while americans are losing jobs, homes, families are being uprooted from schools, neighborhoods that they really love and yet our goverment is playing a mean game of chicken!

    • THE DOLLAR IS DEAD…

      actually it’s all the banks and the 1% that are getting all the cash and then routing it to resources/assets they know they’ll need and benefit them once the currency reset happens….

  • markthetruth

    Listen ! The US and the World is on the same route as Robert Downy JR. was , until he got real help he was lying to himself and the court until he finally fell to the bottom and without a Lockup and rehab he would probably be dead . He needed to crash and realize his addictions and what his role as a person is and he picked himself up and rid of the baggage and came back to the top again . As long as he doesn’t get tempted by the wrong people , he will continue to be a great actor. The same is needed for the US or else we are dead.

    the end…

  • Run

    Crisis? Or Things go on like normal and all the worry for nothing?

  • richard

    Where is my Post?

    • Libsare Ajoke

      Post cereal?

  • Rodster

    So what’s the moral of the story? It basically says for all you Gary2 types that neither Republican nor Democrat gives a flying crap about you. This is all about power and control. That’s what makes liberals and progessives happy. The more they enslave you to their system the more you need them. It’s basic Elite vs Serfs 101.

    But the US already lost even with their threat of default. This will just accelerate the BRICS Nations to get off the Petrol Dollar and swith to another currency. What the US is tyring to do the world is like walking into a Bank with a handgun and threatening a holdup.

    I expect both China and Russia to not go quietly. I expect them to accelerate their Gold buying.

    • grumpyhillbilly

      These Republocrats have proven themselves time over time to be incompetent. They are sealing the fate of the petrodollar. What I don’t get is what they want to achieve with this little game of trying to con the citizenry.

      • Rodster

        If they collapse the system they gain even more power and control because you will become beholden to in order to survive.

    • tacoma

      Don’t be surprised when the Treasury dept does default some of its bonds come Oct 17, not much will happen around the world. That’s because they have all prepared for US eventual bond default and will execute Plan B. The only country that will be hurt is the USA.

      • Jacob

        Wrong. The lack of consumers and aid will effect a majority of the international scene.

    • Gay Veteran

      fixed your sentence for you: This is all about power and control. That’s what makes liberals and conservatives happy.

  • yahell

    CRASH ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Run

    With all the market manipulation lately to keep the dollar afloat, You’d think the powers that be were at least kicking the can down the road. This market baby could crash any time the powers at be just stop. The red/and blue is a distraction for sure. Does any one really know what the real story is or who is in control No!! That is why so many people guess, fear, prepare. My guess is the crisis won’t happen tell the time is right for God. The debate in my head is worry like it’s soon , or live like it’s far away.

  • Aufreak

    Why all the hypocrisy and MSM slam against the Republicans? I am neither Demo or Repub, but wonder why obama was allowed to make at least 19 changes to the ACA through “executive order” and was not required to go through the proper channels to make changes to a law when it is constantly said that the House needs a majority of votes and the Senate needs 60 votes to make any changes to this law? Really, all that might be needed to get past this stalemate is for the Dems to simply agree on ONE item, and that is a one year delay on the individual mandate. Everyone else has gotten this delay. One year would be to everyones’ benefit and allow the ACA to be more thoroughly studied and tweaked if need be.

  • GSOB

    Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon
    wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did
    not commit suicide. – John Adams (1814)

    • tacoma

      The USA implemented the first modern democracy back in 1776. Theoreticians have always wondered what will come next, after democracy. Now we know. It is called two party state theocracy, a complete integration of state and church. In such a system, there is continuous civil holy wars as we now see between the Republican and Democrats.

  • GSOB

    Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have
    for dinner. – James Bovard (1994)

  • ian

    …and by next year there will be another event which may be doomsday for the economy, but nothing will happen……and then the next year another event will happen that may be doomsday for the economy, but nothing will happen….and then the next year……….you get my point .

    but then again, by then a conservative will have possibly been elected and this site will shut down and all the preppers will adore the new war mongering right wing fascist, because he believes in abortion and he will be worshiped by the right and anything he does (up to and including eating babies) will be perfectly ok, because dammit…..he’s a REAL American.

    mark my words….this will happen.

  • Christine Weick

    Anyone else smell the NWO coming?

  • Ideas Time

    Don’t you see what is happening? Game over. The bulk of the people will be no more. The masses have it coming and I am a nice guy.

  • Ideas Time

    Those of you who still belive in the two party system are fools. Get it?

    • tacoma

      Two party system is reasonably OK, if they are just political and reasonable. But the 2 party have now become two churches of two religions, steep in dogma. As history shows, the only way two religions can work together is when one terminate the other.

  • davidmpark

    Last Thursday I attended my first town hall. The State of Utah, according to two local Legislative Reps and the Utah House Speaker say the disabled are to be “left at the side of the road.” The state is not able nor willing to fund their disability programs and are unwilling to loosen the draconian restrictions that prevent us from achieving a workable self-reliance.

    Here’s how I see it: when they collapse the system, revolutionaries will wreak total havoc and civil war. Closing down places that don’t require it in this miniscule shutdown was meant as a warning to not disobey them. If they don’t get what they want, then they will destroy as much as possible: they are insane.

    My biggest fear is that the Feds might make a nuclear strike against our creditors. White House is already doing intentional harm (small, but still harmful to some) to us over implementation of Obamacare. If China, Japan, and the rest of them that own our debt puts on a lot of pressure, I wouldn’t put it past the Administration to launch. That would be the last nail the coffin.

    Thing is I’m not too worried anymore. I’ve mentioned here that I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and I think I should recite some doctrine.

    We believe in the literal gathering of Israel
    and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon
    the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the
    earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

    The New Jerusalem, Zion; is in Nauvoo, Illinois. We’ve always held that after the Mormon Exodus (Mormon Migration, or Trail of Hope) from the United States in 1847 that we’d always return someday to finally build up Zion on the American continent.

    When there is a collapse, there will only be two major powers in the US – Texas and the LDS Church. Both have organization in place, both have the funds and assets to thrive, and both trust their people.

    From what I could gather from Church officials, they already have buildings, farms, livestock, transportation, controlling stakes in mining, medicine, and communications. Texas is going self-reliant in the same way.

    In the short run, it’ll be tough. In the long run, we’ll be okay.

  • http://islamdom.blogspot.com/ Abu Daoud

    I’m not clear on why the stock market woudl tank. Especially for international companies with lots of business and properties outside of the US. I mean, wouldn’t the value of those companies stay more or less the same, and the debased dollar price for a share go up?

  • jobe3x

    I want to correct this article. Fed govt employees are not getting paid until there is new budget in place. Sure only 17% of the govt is shutdown. However, the employees who are still working are working without pay. This isn’t some non-event for them. This is slave labor. How long could you go working without pay?

    • Tim

      Federal employees affected by the shutdown, though a minority, are not permitted to work due to a lapse in appropriations. Federal employees not affected by the shutdown are getting paid.

      • Thad

        Yes, they are getting credited as paid and will EVENTUALLY get paid but not until there is a new 2014 budget (hahahaha) or a new 2014 Continuing Resolution for spending.
        If the CR does not come for, say 6 weeks, then the federal employees that are working now will not get paid until then.
        How many paychecks can you skip and still be in good shape, financially?
        Cheers,

        • jaxon64

          If someone has been collecting those healthy federal government salaries for years and can’t afford 6 weeks without pay–then whose fault is it that they never put aside money for sickness, temp unemployment or shut downs?
          Personal responsibility—(and maybe find a way to generate a few hundred bucks while they have all that free time)…….

    • jaxon64

      this is not slave labor. They will get paid retroactively. They are not working for free or without pay–they are like any private sector contractor at the moment–sometimes payments are delayed.
      PS: I live here in Maryland-and know dozens of govt workers from offices, agencies, to mechanics on metrorail to engineers at PAX river naval air station and security at Andrews–and NONE of them are currently laid off and ALL of them are getting paid or will get paid once this is settled–put down or shut off your local PRAVDA and talk to those involved.

    • jonny

      They all are collecting unemployment . The diffrance between them and us is they are going to get all that back pay. Also of the 800,000 workers the D.O.D. has called back 300,000 plus yesterday.

  • wally

    If the globalists want us to default we will default and if not we won’t. It is that simple. If they are ready to knock down the house of cards they will. Then the dollar collapses and a new global currency is brought in along with a new government run by the UN. Life as we know could end in a few weeks or then again maybe not but strange how all of this seems to be lining up with the November EMP, Cyber Attack drill doesn’t it. Executive Order 13603 could be enacted and that would spell the end of the good ole USA as we know it. Yea I know it is a conspiracy theory but it makes you think doesn’t it?

    • tacoma

      The nasty ‘globalists’ are just the bunch of ‘wise’ politicians you have elected to burn the house down. They are doing it for your good of course.

  • Ralfine

    So, basically, when stock prices fall, the first thing companies are doing to raise profits in the short term is to fire those people who generate turnovers – the most experienced workers.

    When in fact the best thing would be to buy back shares at the lowest price.

    And for that to save some money and not shell everything out to shareholders.

    So, when the company goes bust, the first to fire without compensation should be the board of directors.

    And with less exposure to the stock market, stability will return.

  • Rene Girrard

    IMHO the collapse will come when there is absolutely nothing our politicians can do about it. As long as there is something within their power that they can do, there will not be a collapse. But I believe the day is coming that they will be helpless.

  • Paul

    Is it true that Barack Obama can raise the debt limit through executive order?

    • Tim

      A few years ago a number of legal scholars pointed to a provision in the 14th Amendment that they believe invalidates the statutory debt limit. They say that the President could invoke the 14th Amendment and continue to borrow and spend by Executive Order without regard to the statutory debt limit. Some Democrats in both the House and Senate are advocating this approach.

  • alexo

    We bring in over 250 billion in taxes a month and our interest rate is around $20 billion a month so their is no reason to default unless their is an secret motive?

  • alexo

    This article has some lies!

    Why do we have to default or increase the debt exactly? the government makes over 250 billion a month in taxes just from what we know. Not to mention the FED can print and give away unlimited money. And Military spending is almost of the entire worlds spending and every year increases. Truly their is no good reason for a debt increase or default.

  • JailBanksters

    If they default, just call up the Card Company and tell them you can only pay half of it on Friday and the other half next month. The worst thing to happen is they won’t cancel your card, they just give you more credit.

  • Robert Ketchen

    Don’t Worry be happy , The GOP and Boehner will tuck their collective tail between its legs and cave in to the dems , And when the dollar collapses the president and harry reid will point fingers at the GOP and say its all their fault !!

  • g

    Let’s get this over with already… cause I’ve no stake in the outcome,

  • XSANDIEGOCA

    This is not going to happen. Our Chinese Masters have just jerked Obama’s chain.

  • Jackie Milton

    This country will have a financial collapse be it now or later. I say let it collapse now and we’ll start over the best we can.

    • jaxon64

      exactly…screwed this month or screwed at some point in the near future. Either way the house of cards will collapse—what they build next is the question.

    • tacoma

      But of course, such a collapse will require CNN to recall its reporters from Syria/Egypt, increase reporters a thousand fold, in order to cover the upheavals, riots and shooting galleries all over the USA.

    • ptrump

      “start over the best we can.”
      Your not looking at the big picture, You wont get to decide how it will start over. When a one world unelected government starts printing money, and that’s the only real currency out there, you give them total control.

  • Prut

    I really cannot grasp your logic here. You are lamenting a debt default, yet blaming the Democrats because they refuse to repeal Obamacare — which is what the Republicans are demanding. I suppose if things were the other way around and Democrats were demanding that the Patriot Act be repealed or Glass-Steagall be reinstated in order to raise the debt limit, you would blame Republicans? I’m serious. I’d like you to explain this to me. What am I missing? Thanks.

    • TooLittleTooLate

      I think you read too much in.

      About 99% of folks here hate the patriot act… right there along with the repealing of Glas-Stegall.

      Both parties are to blame… I see Hillary and John McCain as basically the same. They both want the NSA to spy on you… they want the patriot act… they both want drones over your head.

      Both parties are the problem and on most important issues, they’re the same party. More spending for their own causes…. more authority over the tax payers… their lives, their freedom and at this point, their very life ( with healthcare being taken over )

      I love this country. I don’t have to love what it has become.

      The point in all of this is to point to our issues. In this one, we’re sort of screwed no matter what happens next.

      • Prut

        Mike Whitney writes on Counterpunch today that the entire episode is a charade perpetrated by both parties to cut social security and Medicare benefits. The media is slowing changing the narrative from being about repealing Obamacare to bipartisan economic policy negotiations. Obama has stated before his willingness to further screw his base for the 1 percent masters. Look for a deadline deal that further decimates the poor and middle classes.

  • RarefiedSnotress

    Personally, I enjoyed 2008. If a few more gluttonous giants fell, I wouldn’t mind. Hey, weren’t we the ones that dropped the atom bomb? Did we know for sure what was going to happen?

    We need to cut fat and get efficient.. but that isn’t going to happen with today’s perspectives
    Maybe it’s better to face some defaults now vs when we’re older.

  • Benign

    Let’s see how long Michael leaves this comment up….

    The Republicans are the most fiscally irresponsible party in American history. Proof:

    Nixon took us off the gold standard, paving the way for infinite debt inflation.

    Reagan sold the American people a bill of goods, that tax cuts for the rich would reduce the government’s deficit by the “supply side miracle.” Instead Reagan wiped out the middle class.

    The war-mongering Evangelical Protestants of which Michael is one have proved themselves to be the pawns of the plutocrats–which Michael is proving himself to be, in all his phony radicalism.

    What the Republicans are doing is fiscal terrorism consistent with their intent to destroy the American social contract and return us to a neo-feudal state. And no, I don’t believe in the “red vs blue” paradigm. But along with a majority of Americans I find the Republicans to be the problem here, not the solution.

    • jonny

      You are so right and when Nixon did that it was the second time the USA. defaulted on the debt. Regan took the debt from 1 trillion too 3 trillion. So it doesn’t matter if Obama takes it from 11 trillion too 22 trillion and then Hillary from 22 too 44 and so on. Me i’m going to go fishing and let all of you worry about things beyond your control.

    • Airedale

      Nixon had few choices. As Americans bought foreign goods, those foreign governments traded our greenbacks for gold bullion. We bled a large percentage of our gold reserve before Nixon took us off the gold reserve.
      Funny how you blame Reagan. Didn’t he have a Democratic House and Senate to pass his agenda through during all of his four years?

    • Gay Veteran

      and Clinton signed the repeal of Glass-Stegall (thus deregulating banks) and signed NAFTA (which started the destruction of millions of American jobs).
      so the Democrats are no better than the Republicans, BOTH parties are owned by the elites

  • EconomyTrap

    20 people up there talking about “how bad it would be” if the US defaults. Well yes it would be bad for the short term for everyone rich and poor, but in the long term this would be the best thing that could happen. Again they are saying the same thing they did before the bailouts of 2008 and 2009, and the same things they have been screaming come every time the debt ceiling issue is brought up. All they are doing is keeping an overtly bloated government in power and keeping their Wall Street friends in power. The government is too big to afford, DON’T RAISE THE DEBT CIELING, CUT THE SIZE OF GOVERNMENT INSTEAD!
    Michael – you surprise me with your viewpoint of following the herd with this issue. Shame on you.

  • GaryA

    This is just a game to please the electorate – politicians are a front to the business/banking elites. Soaring interest rates and inflation along with monetary collapse will destroy a lot of wealth. Actually, the continuous bailout since 2008 is designed to preserve this wealth by transferring all bad “private” investments to the governments, which is the reason why public debt is soaring. There is absolutely ZERO chance the default will happen by an act of congress. Yes it will happen eventually, but not because of the politicians.

  • Stephanie S

    I will trade you $100/mo. off my social security if Obama, Biden, Pelosi and Reid will resign. Such a deal.

  • frank1569

    ‘There’s a financial crisis every 5 to 7 years.’ ~ JPMorgan Chase CEO Dimon.

    And the last one was… about 5 years ago.

    So, debt ceiling raised or not, it’s coming.

    Brace yourselves.

  • GA

    Nothing is going to happen. Debt ceiling will be raised after some theatrics designed to fool the electorate. Ruling elite will not allow their puppet politicians to ruin their wealth. Default will mean hyper inflation and the collapse of monetary system, which will wipe out a lot of wealth. 60% of public debt ends up in the top 1%, so why would they want to turn off the money spigot? No chance – enjoy the theatre.

  • Graybeardvet

    The USA “WILL NOT” default……..you can bank on it……it is a sure bet…….no way…….never happen……this is nothing but a case of Gov Co showing all the “Little People” how important Washington is……it’s nothing but talk………do not lose any sleep over this debt ceiling garbage……..on Ocober 18 you will wake up and the sky will be blue and the bids will be singing…..

  • bewily

    Michael,
    It’s sad to see what a Republica apologist you’ve become. As despicable as both parties are, in this case it’s the Republicans who are the craziest – they’re holding the government hostage and claiming it’s the fault of the Democrats for not negotiating. Negotiating what? Their hysteria about the evils of Obamacare? What kind of spin doctors are these people and why have you become their tool?

  • gfmucci

    Since most are convinced that Obama will NOT back down, it appears your article is designed to intimidate Conservatives, those more thoughtful and responsible souls in Congress that don’t want a default to occur. An either/or “default” or “business as usual” are NOT the only options. We can pay our debts without approving an entire out of control budget. It appears to me a red herring was raised up your flagpole.

  • David Hammond

    I do believe that eventually the USD will collapse, but I do disagree with some of the folks out there who do say it’s a planned event. I’m on the belief that they are doing everything possible to keep the USD alive…if it were to collapse, everyone would lose from top to bottom. I don’t see how a planned collapsed USD would benefit anyone or any nation right now since our commerce is so intertwined and globally connected.

    • Jimbo

      I believe a planned default would be the most likely outcome. The indebted are always the ones with the best idea of their own situation. They will know when the game is up and will position themselves and their buddies so that the impact is minimised.

      The fact is that can kicking can only go on for so long.

  • whteshark

    Sooner or later we’re going to default. I’m so tired of this crap that I’d rather it be sooner so we could get it over with and get on with our lives one way or another.

  • Steve

    Michael, you’re falling into the same argument that the MSM is using to fleece the sheeple: if a deal is not made to increase the debt ceiling, the US will default automatically. This is completely wrong! The US government will still have revenue coming in, and that can, and will, be used to pay the nation’s debts.
    There may be a default at some point, likely when the interest rates start rising and we can no longer afford to make interest-only payments to our debtors, but the nation’s economy (or the world economy, for that matter) will not collapse on October 17, 2013.

  • heather

    I enjoy reading your articles until you start the democrat and or no godly morals blaming. Anyone with a brain can see they are just playing politics for the corporations that made there political career possible.

    Religion- Together we can find a cure.

    • Gay Veteran

      more like Religion – fleece the sheep

  • Mr. Hobbs

    It’s all political brinkmanship. This is all a drama to MAKE people want to raise the debt and is just a game to them. America’s future downfall will come from the Germans and the EU.

  • Charlie Brown

    This article is beneath your talents as a writer and financial commentator.

    Failure to raise the debt limit simply means that government spending could not exceed receipts.

    The current inflow is adequate to cover interest payments as well as “non discretionary” pay outs.

    Talk about default is meant to scare low information voters and not based on reality.

    • BlueCheeseSquirrel

      Thank you CB. The debt ceiling raise is just the left demanding more credit so it can continue its socialist agenda. In this case, debt ceiling and interest payments are not related.

  • Randy Townsend

    So, unless we increase the debt (and that’s EXACTLY what Congress will do), our economy will tank. Anybody else see what’s wrong with this? 5 years after Lehman and we still face this? There is no recovery, the debt ceiling is just a rouse, and the economy is going to fail when the Chinese decide to stop lending us money. It won’t happen overnight, BTW.

  • Chris Shea

    “If the Democrats agreed to a one year delay to the individual mandate…”

    How can it make sense in a supposed democracy that a Bill is passed by a specific vote on that topic and then the opposition tries to repeal some or all of it by tying that to every other significant bill that follows it. I don’t think that it makes any sense to fault the Democrats in this case for considering the topic to be closed. It should be closed or else the whole system is really, really broken. There are a lot of Republicans, of course, who don’t seem to have any sense right now and don’t seem to accept that they lost the election and they lost the vote on Health Care so they need to move on. Can we all say Dysfunctional together?

    • Randy Townsend

      And how do you explain Obama granting waivers and delays? That law that was “passed by a specific vote on that topic” has not been implemented as that legislation requires, and the reason is action taken by the President himself. So, spare us the idea that “it’s the law and that’s the way it is”. Obama himself gives lie to that idea.

    • Libsare Ajoke

      slavery was once the law too

  • Houtex77

    Antichrist’s new world economic order could be a result of global economic chaos but that can’t happen until after the rapture.

  • Ray

    I say let the country default or cut spending and run a balanced budget. I so sick of these rich political pundits week in and week out. They are treated like royalty – makes me sick. Throw all of them out, abolish the fed, and allow no one to profit from charging interest.

  • lemmiwinks88

    Seems like a lot of jews are worried that their counterfeiting scheme is about to go poof.

    That means it’s a good/great thing.

  • surfer2u

    Default will not happen. Otherwise don’t you think we would be seeing those in the know shorting treasuries, USD; and the derivatives market showing signs of stress, and increasing interest rates in the treasuries market? No. None of these things are happening so there are no signals that a default will happen. This is a simple orchestration of getting a pound of flesh off the lower and middle classes while future enriching the oligarchs. It’s all theater.

  • Kent Harris

    Food for thought the Blood Moons begins next year and goes through 2015. 2001, 2008 and 2015 are seven year intervals. The first 9/11 actually occurred in 1903 with Israel when the Jewish National Fund bought the first parcel of land east of Hadera. Another thought 112 a rather interesting number. Justice is mentioned 112 times in the Bible. 112 years is what may have been when Nineveh repented with Jonah to when God through Nahum they would be judged and destroyed. 112th Pope and possibly last pope. If you add 112 + 1903 you get 2015. BTW every time Blood Moons have fallen on the Jewish High Holy days something big has happened. The last two being the 6 Day War with Israel and the Arabs and Israel becomes a nation.

    • lemmiwinks88

      food for thought:

      the polish and russian atheist sociopath race cult who masquerade as a persecuted religion aren’t jews……..and they aren’t Semites.

      They are the scum of europe

  • tacoma

    A default of payment of U.S. sovereign debt will be a serious matter. But not as serious as continuing to pile up such debt via annual budget deficit, and financing such debt using circular currency creation and swap via the Federal Reserve.

    The piling up of debt has to stop, either by enforcing the debt ceiling by Congress, or by stop action of the Federal Reserve, or by rejection by the bond market.

    Sooner of later this insanity of the U.S. government will stop. Because such insanity of all countries that has practiced it in history did stop. Unfortunately, by the time they stopped, hyper-inflation, insurrections, revolutions, riots, upheaval, and regime change have always followed.

    So stop now, or stop later. I do suggest checking out Egypt and Syria of late, where people decided to shut down the governments.

  • BenguluruHuduga

    Leave the politics aside, but how can one default when earnings is about 10 times more than debt ? The future commitments can be cut, and can not be funded which forces a balanced budget.

  • Tatiana Covington

    Idiots believing Obama about anything!

  • Connovar

    Isn’t it better to let the default occur and get this over and done with. The longer we wait for a failure the worse the situation will be and the harder the landing

  • Gay Veteran

    bilge

  • GoldenEagles

    The Republicans believe that ObamaCare is a job killer. But a default on the U.S. debt, given the ripple effect that the author above describes, would cause a job loss across America a thousand times worse, and much faster. Do the Republicans want to brand themselves as the greatest job destroyers in the history of America? No. You can take this to the bank. The Republicans will back down on this issue. There will be no default on the U.S. debt.

  • kathy k

    BRING IT!! For once we need to stand @ fight . Get rid of Obummer care period. If we give in to this we may as well sign up for slavery.

  • Sev

    This is silly. At some point, later if not now, the US will default. It’s only a matter of time. So why all the fuss?

  • RarefiedSnotress

    I will tell you what will happen in the near future.
    There will be a brief default.. YES.. BUT .. it will be technical, very short, and amount to a nonevent.

  • Rick Caird

    Wait a second, even if there is no deal on the debt ceiling, there is no need to default. Maturing debt could still be rolled over and interest payments could still by made. Interest payments are a small portion of the revenue the government receives.

    In spite of the attempt by ThinkProgress and others to call people “debt truthers” who point out default is much different that spending $700 billion more than our revenue, the fact of the matter is there is no need to default on our debt. What we will not be able to do is spend $700 more than we take in. Voila, no need for a balanced budget amendment. We will have one.

    • GoldenEagles

      That is an interesting idea, separating out the issue of using available government income, collected via tax revenues day by day, to service existing debt and the issue of the vote required to raise the debt ceiling which is needed to borrow more money.

      Is it absolutely necessary to borrow more money to allow the cashing in of maturing treasury bills? Or can this be done with existing revenues?

  • Joe Wenzel

    A government collapse sounds pleasant compared to how America is now. We cannot fix this country without it first destroying itself. No legal process can make a difference when every level of government is corrupt.

  • alan

    Then when chaos breaks out declare marital law and now you have a president for life.

  • Ayn R. Key

    A debt default would be unprecedented. After all, FDR didn’t break contracts to pay in gold, FDR didn’t change the price of gold, and Lincoln didn’t indefinitely postpone repayment of the Greenbacks.

  • Bob of the North

    Alan Greenspan said that the US would never default because we can just print all the money we want to cover our debts. But, of course, he left unspoken the results of that process taken to the extreme…

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