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The German Siege Of Greece Begins (No, This Is Not A Repeat From 1941)

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Siege - Public DomainDid you notice that Greece’s creditors are not rushing to offer the Greeks a new deal in the wake of the stunning referendum result on Sunday?  In fact, it is being reported that the initial reaction to the “no” vote from top European politicians was “a thunderous silence“.  Needless to say, the European elite were not pleased by how the Greek people voted, but they still have all of the leverage.  In particular, it is the Germans that are holding all of the cards.  If the Germans want to cave in and give the Greeks the kind of deal that they desire, everyone else would follow suit.  And if the Germans want to maintain a hard line with Greece, they can block any deal from happening all by themselves.  So in the final analysis, this is really an economic test of wills between Germany and Greece, and time is on Germany’s side.  Germany doesn’t have to offer anything new.  The Germans can just sit back and wait for the Greek government to default on their debts, for Greek banks to totally run out of cash and for civil unrest to erupt in Greek cities as the economy grinds to a standstill.

In ancient times, if a conquering army came up against a walled city that was quite formidable, often a decision would be made to conduct a siege.  Instead of attacking a heavily defended city directly and taking heavy casualties, it was often much more cost effective to simply surround the city from a safe distance and starve the inhabitants into submission.

In a sense, that is exactly what the Germans appear to want to do to the Greeks.  Without more cash, the Greek government cannot pay their bills.  Without more cash, Greek banks are going to start collapsing left and right.  Without more cash, the Greek economy is going to completely and utterly collapse.

So yes, the Greeks voted for change, but the Germans still hold the purse strings.

And right now the Germans do not sound like they are in any mood to compromise.  The following comes from a Reuters report that was published on Monday…

German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s deputy said Athens had wrecked any hope of compromise with its euro zone partners by overwhelmingly rejecting further austerity.

Merkel and French President Francois Hollande conferred by telephone and will meet in Paris on Monday afternoon to seek a joint response. Responding to their call, European Council President Donald Tusk announced that euro zone leaders would meet in Brussels on Tuesday evening (1600 GMT).

German Vice-Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel, leader of Merkel’s centre-left Social Democratic junior coalition partner, said it was hard to conceive of fresh negotiations on lending more billions to Athens after Greeks voted against more austerity.

Leftist Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras had “torn down the last bridges on which Greece and Europe could have moved towards a compromise,” Gabriel told the Tagesspiegel daily.

In addition, Angela Merkel’s office released a statement on Monday that placed the onus on making a new proposal to end this crisis on the Greek government

It is up to Greece to make something of this. We are waiting to see which proposals the Greek government makes to its European partners,” the office of German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Europe’s leading austerity advocate, said in a statement.

Just because the Greek people want the Germans to give them a very favorable deal does not mean that the Germans will be inclined to do so.  The Germans know that whatever they do with the Greeks will set a precedent for the rest of the financially-troubled nations all across Europe.  If Greece gets a free lunch, then Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and France will expect the same kind of treatment

Angelos Chryssogelos, an expert on Greek politics at the London-based think tank Chatham House, said the strength of Sunday’s mandate handed to Tsipras means it will be almost impossible for the prime minister’s leftist Syriza party to make a deal with European creditors.

“The Europeans made it pretty clear where they stand, and they have been consistent,” Chryssogelos said, adding that the creditors also are unlikely to back down. “Right now, voters across the eurozone largely support the tough stance taken by the eurozone.”

Chryssogelos said Greek voters may have underestimated the resolve of the creditors to reach an accord on their terms. “If someone is seen getting preferential treatment, then someone else will want that treatment,” he said, referring to other eurozone debtors such as Ireland and Portugal.

And remember, there is a very important Spanish election coming up in December.

If Syriza comes out as the big winner in this crisis, it will empower similar movements in Spain and all over the rest of the continent.

So look for Greece’s creditors to tighten the screws over the coming days.  In fact, we already saw a bit of screw tightening on Monday when the ECB announced that Greek banks would not be receiving additional emergency assistance

In a move sure to increase pressure on Greece’s flailing banks, the European Central Bank on Monday decided not to expand an emergency assistance program, raising fears that Greece could soon go completely bankrupt.

The move put a swift crimp on Greek leaders’ jubilation after winning a landslide endorsement from their citizens to reject Europe’s austerity demands and seek a new bailout bargain. Now they must seek a bargain before the money runs out within days, which would likely force them off the euro.

Basically we are watching a very high stakes game of chicken play out.  And as the cash dwindles, economic activity in Greece is slowly grinding to a halt.  The following comes from the Washington Post

The dwindling cash is sucking the life out of everything from coffee shops to taxis, as anxious Greeks economize amid fears for the future. Greek leaders also banned transfers of money abroad, meaning that very little can now be imported into the country.

Printing plants are warning that they may run out of paper to print newspapers by the end of the week. Butchers say that stocks of imported meat are dwindling.

Some are even projecting that we could see civil unrest erupt in Greece in about “48 hours” once the ATM machines  run out of cash

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras probably has 48 hours to resolve a standoff with creditors before civil unrest breaks out and ATMs run out of cash, hedge fund Balyasny Asset Management said.

Yes, the Greek people exhibited great resolve in voting against the demands of the creditors on Sunday.

But how long can they endure this economic siege?

It is inevitable that a breaking point will come.  Either the Greek government will give in, or the Greeks will leave the euro and start to transition back to the drachma.

If we do see a “Grexit”, and many analysts believe that one is coming, it could set off a chain of events that could cause immense financial pain all over the planet.  There are tens of trillions of dollars of derivatives that are tied to European bond yields, European interest rates, etc.  The following is an excerpt from a piece authored by Phoenix Capital Research that explains what kind of jeopardy we could potentially be facing…

The global derivatives market is roughly $700 trillion in size. That’s over TEN TIMES the world’s GDP. And sovereign bonds… including even bonds from bankrupt countries such as Greece… are one of, if not the primary collateral underlying all of these trades.

Greece is not the real issue for Europe. The entire Greek debt market is about €345 billion in size. So we’re not talking about a massive amount of collateral… though the turmoil this country has caused in the last three years gives a sense of the importance of the issue.

Spain, by comparison has over €1.0 trillion in debt outstanding… and Italy has €2.6 trillion. These bonds are backstopping tens of trillions of Euros’ worth of derivatives trades. A haircut on them would trigger systemic failure in Europe.

If Greece gets a “haircut” on their debt, other European nations would want the same and that would cause massive chaos in the derivatives markets.

But if Greece does not get a deal and ends up leaving the eurozone, that will cause bond yields to go crazy all over Europe and that would also cause tremendous chaos in the derivatives markets.

So much depends on keeping this system of legalized gambling that we call “derivatives trading” stable.  We have allowed the global derivatives bubble to become many times larger than the GDP of the entire planet, and in the end we will pay a great price for this foolishness.

Every pyramid scheme eventually collapses, and this one will too.

But the difference with this pyramid scheme is that it is going to take the entire global financial system down with it.

  • sean

    Except if tbe Germans step in. Then its fixed. No matter what happens badly the beat always goes on.
    even experts you noted in your RED ALERT ARTICLE are already pushing the collapse out 2 years. Its always next year. Lol

    • MichaelfromTheEconomicCollapse

      No, what is coming will not be pushed into next year.

      But next year WILL be worse than this year.

      • sean

        thanks for the articles. very frustrsting not having some sort of reset sooner. some many things out of whack….

  • GSOB

    The rich rules over the poor, And the borrower becomes the lender’s slave. He who sows iniquity will reap vanity, And the rod of his fury will perish.…

    • df NJ

      “Let them eat cake.” Marie Antoinette

    • MichaelfromTheEconomicCollapse

      Indeed.

  • you know an idea is messed up when people can’t even figure out how to spell it correctly – the correct spelling is “eurozone” but only a handful of writers seem to have figured that out

  • GSOB

    “A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.”

  • MIchael in Chicago

    Sounds like the problem is currency, loans and not living within your means. Maybe they should adopt a barter system or precious metal system. Something primitive. I think I read something about how 50% of the Greeks rely on a pension to survive. They might want to think about coming out of retirement and start working on a farm. Or at the very least get a garden and chicken coup going. Much like the rest of the world, only the 1% will be able to retire. That also hightlights the danger of not having multiple sources of income in retirement. Perhaps money is the root of all evil. More so when you do not have any.

    • df NJ

      Or maybe the banking system is rigged and the Greeks are just sick of being slaves to the central bank.

    • Evil_shadow

      well, they did live past their limits, but as it goes so does most of developed world…at least they should have collect taxes, it would be much easier fot govt to manage already dryed out funds…but you are right about banks;system is rigged so its pointless to hope that they will change anything for the better.

  • MIchael in Chicago

    I am looking forward to the Russian and Chinese response to the Greek crisis. You know they will do something and step up to help out.

  • AvidReader

    The best the Greeks can do to restore their dignity and to cut the chains of the EU, is to start issuing scrip currency, which has been done in many times and places in history. This would eventually pave the way for a new drachma and would finally blow up the euro and the derivatives casino.

    • GSOB

      Agree

    • Dates

      endless borrowing never solve debt problem. in fact, it’ll make it bigger, harder to deal with. btw, how does hitler solve the german hyperinflation when he came to power after WWI? anyone knows?

      • df NJ

        He was financed by the Rothschild’s so the Germans could keep Bolsheviks at bay. All the the members of monarchy were fearing for their lives after the Romanovs were slaughtered.

    • MichaelfromTheEconomicCollapse

      But for now the new Greek government is very determined to stay in the EU and remain part of the eurozone.

      • Evil_shadow

        i dont think that they can”cast out” greece so easily.Afterall, if they do, greece could simply say that they wont repay ANY loan they have.What then?And its not just germany decision if they’ll kick out greece or not.AFAIAK there must be consensus among rest of the Eu members to do so.And not all of memebrs are sharing same idea as central europe do.Also if greece does get cast out and default, what do you think will happen with derivatives? You know more than me, and i dont have to tell you about current situation in europe(at least not in economic area; i live simple life in one of small country in fascist led EU).cheers.

    • jakartaman

      Greeks are like our liberals – They have no dignity and can not be shamed.

  • retired22

    The great British political thinker of the 19TH century was Lord Acton.He was quoted as saying “The issue which has swept down the centuries & will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks”

    • GSOB

      “What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel…..”

      • df NJ

        “Women are evil.”

        • GSOB

          Evil is that which is contrary to the will of God.
          It is a moral condition expressed as sin.
          Sin is ‘missing the mark’. The “mark” is God’s will. The wages of sin is death.
          We all die for our sins because God has already judged us as being evil.
          Satan practiced evil and those who do so today, including you, are in league with Satan, the god of this world.
          Only Christ, the Righteous and Holy One, can set you free by the His blood and regenerate you, transforming you
          into a son of God, a dwelling place of God in spirit.
          He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
          Union with Christ is the blessed solution to our dire condition. Seek Him, while there is still time.
          Run after Him.
          He lives

  • Antonio Ossa

    TIME HAS COME TO PAY THE PIPER!

  • Alwaystomorrow

    The Economic Collapse Blog Has Issued A RED ALERT For The Last Six Months Of 2015

    Published 6/25/2015
    179 days until 12/31/2015.

    For fun, lets do a count down every day until the end of 2015 and see just what happens.

    • LWZRGHT

      Will you post your portfolio value for all of those days too?

      • MichaelfromTheEconomicCollapse

        Now that would be quite entertaining. :)

    • Mike Smithy

      Yes we know. Why don’t you go sit in a corner, suck a turd to a sharp point and stab yourself in the eye with it.

      • VigilanteCaregiver

        WHOA! Wish I thought of that comeback….

  • Mike Smithy

    I am not of the opion that Germany is holding all the cards. If Greece defaults then German creditors get nothing. Although German concessions may lead to a spreading contagion to Italy,Spain and Portugal, we cannot rule out the prospect that it may not spread. Being the pragmatist that I am, I would consider 50% of something verses 100% of nothing. In addition, I argue that Greece is holding a playable hand. Let’s not rule out the prospect that Russia is offering financial assistance pursuant to establishing a naval port as well as making Greece a central hub for the South Stream Pipeline.

    • df NJ

      The free loading Germans need to take responsibility for their bad business decisions.

      • Mike Smithy

        True. However, Greece must shoulder some of the blame for living beyond their means for far too long. This is a lesson that the USA will soon be learning.

        • df NJ

          How do you know the Greek pensions were not scammed away by some banker’s shyster derivative BS. Google “looting the pension funds” to see how Wall Street raped Detroit.

          I don’t understand why everyone blames the people as “living beyond their means” instead of maybe government corruption. Why does everyone trust the government so much????

          • Nemnor

            I would say, rather – I don’t understand why everyone blames the people as “living beyond their means” instead of identifying the REAL issue, which is – too much wealth is concentrated in the hands of “the 1%” (which includes the wealthiest Capitalists that control and manipulate corrupt Governments), though it is “the people” (i.e. the mass of Working Class people) that created/produced virtually ALL wealth in Human society.

    • jakartaman

      2% of the Euro zone – beer money!

  • Sandbagger

    Russia to the rescue. Nice new pipeline will solve problems on both sides.

    • Patriot One

      Maybe, but you didn’t see Russia rescue Iceland, but there was no pipeline or terminal. The globalist are coming post collapse and initially you will only have 3 global Passports America’s, China’s or Russia.

  • CharlesH

    Everything on the planet is so screwed up, I swear. I’m actually inclined to say I hope all of this crap comes unraveled – a massive reset. HOWEVER, the same greedy bastards that run this system will devise and control the next. There is no winning unless you literally sell your soul and THAT I will never do.

    • df NJ

      Selling you soul is not so bad. It’s not as bad as living in New Jersey.

      • Mike

        Guarantee that hell is worse than the most miserable place you can imagine on this planet.

        • Mike Smithy

          Worse than New Jersey?

          • df NJ

            He definitely hasn’t lived here!

          • df NJ

            Stuck on the Parkway trying to get to the beach on a Saturday. I rest my case.

          • df NJ

            Ikea in Elizabeth. I rest my case.

            In fact, I suspect Beelzebub’s lair is 300 feet in a cavern below the Ikea in Elizabeth.

          • Mike Smithy

            Did you see Snooki and her posse at the beach?

          • df NJ

            The Long Island transplants are agents of Satan here to make the locals living conditions in NJ just a little more pleasant.

          • Patti

            If you were really a local, you’d know better than to go to the beach on Saturday…and to avoid the Parkway at all costs.

          • df NJ

            Route 18.

          • Bob332

            The Illegal Mexican’s are treated better than the “Bennies” in Joisey!

      • Bob332

        I can empathize re: N.J. , that’s why my family and I got out!

      • TtT Engine

        Gov. Ralph Kramden/aka Chris Christie got NJ’s credit rating downgraded 9 times [oh yes “he inherited it”]. He balanced budgets via debt and missed pension payments. He is a BIG mainstream REPUB. The only chance we have of giving BIG GOV. the BIG CREW CUT they desperately need is if we get Cruz/Trump/Carson/Walker/West, or maybe Jindal. The rest are mainstream RED DEVILS and REPUBS. The healing medicine is RWB Constitutional Conservatism. Embrace it before it is too late ! CHRISTI FIDELIS !!

      • Randy Townsend

        Or in CA if you are non-hispanic…

        • Mike Adams

          Oh, boy. I’m starting to tingle.

      • IsReal

        Fear God, eternal hell is misery and torment forever with no escape.

    • Bob332

      Most pol’s HAVE sold their souls, it’s the payment in the end that’s eternal. Their House of Cards will eventually crash and burn.

    • MichaelfromTheEconomicCollapse

      The elite love to create order out of chaos.

      But I disagree with you about the not winning part. Those that know Jesus are going to win big in the end. Just read the end of the Book. :)

      Michael

      • jhowell882

        your oh so absolutely right Micheal i have read the end of the book. the real wealth we have is actually his love and the love of family and friends and each other. imagine the world we would have if we just loved and cared for each other like he asked us to do.

        • Nemnor

          However, I believe that GENUINE “loved and cared for each other” (other then probably your own Family and Friends), is pure fantasy under this decadent Capitalist economic system in which money and material things are seemingly “worshiped” more often than not.

      • MeMadMax

        mmm, theres one thing that greece can do and is entirely unforeseen but also entirely plausible and prudent:

        Greece leaves the Euro and switches to the Dollar…

        • Mike Smithy

          Greece leaves the Euro and uses the Drachma, Ruble, or Yuan is more likely.

        • Rick

          Well why wouldn’t they just start printing more euros now and diluting the market in Europe like we’ve diluted the world market with dollars over the past 6 years? They have a printing press just as all member nations do.

          • Tom

            @disqus_pWgAeIIwkO:disqus

            The Greeks can’t “just print Euros”

            Only the European Central Bank is allowed to print (create out of thin air) Euros!

            The ECB is effectively controlled by Germany & France. The Greeks have so little input to the operation of the ECB that they are effectively shut out of the monetization process.

          • Rick

            Tom, you and I both know with today’s technology, the Greeks could print all the euros they need. Oh, you say that would be illegal?? Well look around you buddy, the average guy on our street has been getting raped by the same scheme of QE by our government in bed with an illegal Fed!

          • Balerion

            Any euros that the Greek government printed would technically be considered counterfeit. Although if they could make them close enough to the real thing that no one could tell the difference then they could possibly get away with it.

          • Rick

            Counterfeit doesn’t really mean anything today. Just look around you. We have counterfeit POTUS, counterfeit SCOTUS, counterfeit Congress, counterfeit food (GMO), and counterfeit medicine, to go along with too many counterfeit (illegal) immigrants.

          • Richard T.

            Well said, and don’t forget counterfeit Christianity, too.

      • Mike Adams

        You are understanding.

        • Nemnor

          But could you or Michael say precisely how “those that know Jesus” would ultimately be big “winners”?

          I do not see any tangible/practical advantage due to “knowing Jesus”. Please explain.

          However, what I clearly see is that, ultimately, the only solution for Greece is a fundamental shift away from the current economic system in Greece and the rest of the EU. There is no other lasting solution, as the EU will never be permanently fixed under the current economic system.

          • jakartaman

            Read the all time world best seller – more than once!

      • Gay Veteran

        I fixed your sentence: The elite love to create order out of chaos THAT THEY CREATED

        • AngelPea

          We allowed them to create it with our apathy and ignorance. I think it is easy to pour all blame on the elite cabal, however, all of us peons are guilty as well. Most don’t stand up and speak out against the corruption, most just worry about their own sorry rear-ends. Now that the house of cards is falling, people are beginning to wake up. It’s too late, though, the re-set button has been pushed and everything that comes with it. It will be what it will be…

      • jox

        It’s absolutely amazing how intelligent and rational people can become fully irrational about a book written thousands of years ago, full of historic and scientific errors, that has not been right a prophecy ever.

    • Steeve Girard

      It will come one day… SHE, the mother of us all will make us remember, who’s house it is, we live in. But like any good mother her patience with us is great… but not limitless. We are made of HER, we are part of HER What we do to others, we do it to ourselves. Greek people… good luck… give them misery.. you can be the next Cuba.

    • Drea

      If you have a soul and compassion for other human beings then selling your soul would be a lose in my opinion. The problem is that these people don’t have souls. You can’t bomb women and children and have one of those.

    • Patriot Alice

      You prefer the debtor to control the creditors? The tenants to run the apartment complex? The uneducated to rule over the educated? The children to run the household? The stupid over the smart? The economically challenged “Welfare”, to rule the rich, the dependents to rule the independent, the students to run the classroom? What are you, a commie?

    • Patriot Alice

      You prefer the debtor to control the creditors? The tenants to run the
      apartment complex? The uneducated to rule over the educated? The
      children to run the household? The stupid over the smart? The
      economically challenged “Welfare”, to rule the rich, the dependents to
      rule the independent, the students to run the classroom? What are you, a
      commie?

  • Bill

    I was right. It’s the damn Germans.

    • Mark Stefan Reinoso

      the 4th reich!

  • Patriot One

    I think Greece will be ok. Kind of like Iceland, but Greece has a fairly large shipping industry for its size. The government and banks may not survive, but as long as the people have ships there will be trade and commerce. The purge of the government and bank parasites could be quite liberating.

    • df NJ

      And tourism. It will be the cheapest place to have a vacation in Europe.

  • LWZRGHT

    I’ve followed this story casually the entire year, and last week I finally looked up the sticking points between the Greeks and the EU. I list these in what I perceive as the importance to the Greeks.
    1. Pensions: the EU wants to cut down on early retirement and “top up” grants that are given to poor Greeks. The government has already agreed to phase them out – all they are arguing over is the timing. Greece will cave on this, because no Greek gets any pension money or any other money if they don’t make a deal.
    2. Labor laws: I couldn’t find much information on this, but I imagine
    it is a huge sticking point with a socialist government. This I don’t
    think they’ll cave on because they’re government will far apart if they
    do. It’s probably a pretty big sticking point with the EU because
    Greece’s public sector spending is crazy out of control. I wish I got 14
    monthly paychecks a year!
    3. Sales taxes: For some reason, the government doesn’t want to tax tourists more. What’s incredulous about this is that tourists will want to come to Greece, regardless of a few extra Euros or Dollars of taxes. It’s the birthplace of Western civilization and has some of the most interesting architecture in the world, as well as a beautiful climate and tons of waterfront. Imagine how cheap it would be to visit Greece if they really default and everything goes to pot.
    4. Business taxes: The government says it will crack down on tax evasion. Apparently this is a rampant problem in Greece, and people from rich to poor engage in it. I would say this is the main sticking point. Why? Because the Greek government is putting a value on their ability to catch tax evaders, and the lenders don’t believe they can do it. To me, this is similar to “supply side” (voodoo) economics. Because there’s no way to accurately predict the value outcome of these changes, the IMF refuses to accept numbers based on those changes. (Interestingly enough, since the Republicans have taken control of the Senate, they have mandated the CBO to score their bills based on increased spending by businesses based on lower taxes. This behavior has never occurred in history and yet now the headline numbers of Congressional budget proposals will have those numbers.)
    5. Military spending: 200 million Euro immediate cut. The Greek defense minister says he can’t do it. I bet he can. What happens if the budget is 0? A minister with no congregation is no minister at all.

    5, 4, and 3, the Greeks cave, and on 1 and 2, the EU compromises some and while there are still cuts and changes, every Greek has to suffer some.

    • Mike Smithy

      Some of your logic is flawed. I would argue that “Demand Side Economics” is equally flawed. For example, when Democrats increase taxes, there is no way for the CBO to accurately predict capital flight over the medium and long term. Sure, the government might see an immediate short term bump in revenues, but people with means always find loop poles around the tax code. When capital is parked off shore, it does nothing to spawn domestic growth.

      • df NJ

        I just amazed the top 1% agreed to 90% taxes during the FDR era. What were the people doing that had the top 1% so worried?

      • LWZRGHT

        um, lol? I write a multi-paragraph post and your response is to the parenthetical aside? I was simply pointing out that the Greek government can’t put a score on their ability to collect from tax evaders and drawing a parallel to the U.S. government budget.
        And, to the aside, the CBO had accounting rules that apply to scoring budgets – they don’t just pull numbers out of their buttholes. This change is significant and poses significant problems for U.S. solvency in the future.

        • Mike Smithy

          You are the one who introduced the parenthetical into the discussion, so it is fair game. Despite your assertion, CBO projections are usually based upon pure fantasy because of arbitrary and unrealistic assumptions. For example, the CBO report posted in January 2011 projected 5.5%economic growth in 2015. In August 2011, the CBO revised their 2015 growth projections to 6.6%. Now let’s look at the actual numbers even with President Zero’s Administration now calculating GDP by including R&D estimates. Despite the manipulation, 2015, Q1 posted GDP growth at -0.2%. Yet you insist that the CBO doesn’t pull numbers from their posterior. LOL indeed.

    • MichaelfromTheEconomicCollapse

      Don’t forget that the Greeks want debt relief. That has become one of the primary sticking points.

      • VigilanteCaregiver

        Mike, do the Greeks have any valuable markets or produce any products en mass that can work as collateral?

    • Phil from Germany

      Actually its quite commen here in Europe to get 13 monthly paychecks a year. I admit its becoming less so, but when I was working for other people (Now long since self employed), no Christmas extra money and August holiday money, wouldnt have worked for them

  • df NJ

    Geben Sie uns Ihre Ruhestand Geld Sie dumm Griechen.

    • Mike Smithy

      DF, I am not following your point. I translate as follows: “They announce their retirement money, stupid Greeks”.

      • df NJ

        It should have said, “Give me all your retirement money you stupid Greeks.”. Oh well, never trust Google translate!

  • END TIME CATALYST

    Things are definitely not looking good, but as a christian, there is only one thing left for me to do and that is to look at the heavens because our redemption TRULY draws near!

    • df NJ

      I thought about redemption for a long time. My faith in God’s infinite love and forgiveness may be stronger than yours. I may be wrong but here is what I believe. I believe when you die, God uses his omnipotent powers of forgiveness to allow everyone to enter through the gates of heaven to experience eternal bliss regardless of our Earthly sins. Everyone is saved by God’s infinite love. You don’t have say magic Jesus words or buy your absolution from the church. You just get in by showing up.

      • Robert

        Actually, you are fatally wrong. You are making up your own brand of faith which is deadly. You either believe the Biblical gospel or you do not. You do not apparently. This is the human condition, we make up our own myths and fables and stories to assuage ourselves. There is one gospel. One way. Cheers.

        • df NJ

          I would never pretend to speak for God so I am not “making up” my own brand of faith. The Bible was written by many different authors for about 1500 years. The Gospel was written 70 years after the death of Jesus by men. You say I am “fatally wrong”. But you are asking me to put my faith in a lesser God. By putting my faith in an all powerful, all loving, all forgiving God is a measure of my reverence. And if I am “fatally wrong” it will not be because I have a lack of faith in my God to make a loving choice for me.

          • GSOB

            It is clear you do not speak for God.
            Thank God for that.
            Your responses are of the natural order and the natural man can not understand the things of God.
            Why?
            Because, to them, the things of God are foolishness to the natural man.
            Thanks for your responses. They only
            show us what the bible has said about you to begin with.
            Just like two adult guys kissing each other in their gay expression ….
            it is obvious to all,…. there is something wrong.

          • Mike Adams

            nothing wrong. it is not wrong. wife and husband has to kiss each other.

            It is not similar to kiss other people.

          • GSOB

            Psalm 2:12

          • Gay Veteran

            parrot

          • Nemnor

            However, for me what is NOT generally and NATURALLY happening among Humans, is basically improper to do, as it is the EXCEPTION in this particular case.

            The general and NATURAL thing is that a Man be sexually attracted to a Woman, and vice versa. And, I believe that nature knows BEST.

            I always KNEW that Obama was lacking in TRUE Wisdom. And he confirmed to many, what I always knew.

      • algol2000

        Actions do have consequences. Even in eternity. Therefore, not everyone will be admitted into heaven. And surely not lucifer.

        • jakartaman

          He is a liberal – Therefore – He has no personal responsibility!

          • Tom Hansen

            And many on the right have a problem with making the plutocrats take responsibility for their errors in judgement .. only they deserve subsidies .. like mass immigration for cheap labor .. their banker buddies get bailed out at our expense.. and corporate interests get laws written to their specifications .. problem with the right . is they are stuck in arguments that no longer work or apply .. talk radio has done as much damage to our critical thinking as anything the left has done.

          • Nemnor

            Tom Hansen, I AGREE with you 110%! (lol)

          • Gay Veteran

            “Thou shalt not bear false witness”

          • VigilanteCaregiver

            Using the old Alinsky tactic of manipulating the definition of a person’s morality to control them again?

            And before you bother with “I wish I had a nickel…”; I wish I had a nickel every time your lot used those tactics with cognitive dissonance. I could hire a CNA finally.

          • Gay Veteran

            I find it highly amusing you always whine about Alinksy tactics when YOU practice them yourself. Hypocrite.

            and sorry you feel so offended when I mention one of the 10 Commandments which you supposedly follow

          • VigilanteCaregiver

            See, this exactly what I’m talking about. You are using Alinksy tactics because to accuse someone properly – you have to provide evidence.

            I am observing the Lord’s Commandments; you just misinterpret them in a vain attempt to gain an advantage. Claiming your opinion is universal truth, then accuse me of the sin of lying. Doesn’t work as I am loyal to the Gospel of Christ: you, an troll I have no contact with other than here, are not my god.

            You’re using all of them ineffectively since I really don’t care what you say nor respect you. It’s just a convenience for me to present my views compared to your lunacy.

            And for the readers, here’s the list the troll is using:
            RULE 1: “Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have.”
            RULE 2: “Never go outside the expertise of your people.”
            RULE 3: “Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy.”
            RULE 4: “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.”
            RULE 5: “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.”
            RULE 6: “A good tactic is one your people enjoy.”
            RULE 7: “A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag.”
            RULE 8: “Keep the pressure on. Never let up.”
            RULE 9: “The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself.”
            RULE 10: “If you push a negative hard enough, it will push through and become a positive.”
            RULE 11: “The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative.”
            RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.”

            Call me names all you want. Accuse me all you want. Commit libel, harass, and such to your heart’s content. Has it worked? Nope, I’m still here and getting better results than you! Just look at my posting history. You’re losing, and always will. :)

          • Gay Veteran

            bet you wrote down those Alinsky tactics from memory since YOU use them so much

          • VigilanteCaregiver

            Keep grasping for those straws. You lost again.

          • Gay Veteran

            awwww, you’re so cute when you pretend to win

          • VigilanteCaregiver

            You have lost. Long ago.

            Your Leftist dystopia is collapsing. How is that winning? Many are suffering, many have died, many are set to die; and all your lot provides is arrogance and lunacy.

            Keep claiming your winning all you want; evidence and results prove otherwise.

          • Gay Veteran

            my “Leftist dystopia”?!?!?!?

            sorry junior, but we live in a fascist country (fascism = the merger of state and korporate powers).

            “…and all your lot provides is arrogance and lunacy….”

            the irony is strong with this one!

          • VigilanteCaregiver

            Yes; your leftist dystopia. Just look at your posting history: you’ve supported everything that has caused death and ruin. Do you claim support to fascism as you define it? You just said you’re an employee of the USDA; you are supporting it through your labors (Previously, you told MalcolmReynolds you were a patent attorney, so how can I know for certain what you’re employment is, and why should I care?)

            Besides, when things come crashing down I’m not the one the angry townsfolk will be looking for…

          • Gay Veteran

            “Yes; your leftist dystopia. Just look at your posting history: you’ve supported everything that has caused death and ruin….”

            wow, you lie better than Slick Willie Clinton:
            I opposed the continuing war in Afghanistan, I opposed the war of aggression against Iraq, I opposed the bombing of Libya, I opposed the support for terrorists in Syria, I opposed drone strikes that have killed 100s of innocents, etc.

            “…Do you claim support to fascism as you define it?….”

            as I define it??? it was Mussolini who stated “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”

            so no.

            “…You just said you’re an employee of the USDA; you are supporting it through your labors….”

            uh, no, not where I work

            “…Previously, you told MalcolmReynolds you were a patent attorney, so how can I know for certain what you’re employment is, and why should I care?…..”

            dude, I haven’t asked about YOUR employment

            “…Besides, when things come crashing down I’m not the one the angry townsfolk will be looking for…”

            no, they’ll just be coming for your supplies

          • VigilanteCaregiver

            “wow, you lie better than Slick Willie Clinton:
            I opposed the continuing war in Afghanistan, I opposed the war of aggression against Iraq, I opposed the bombing of Libya, I opposed the support for terrorists in Syria, I opposed drone strikes that have killed 100s of innocents, etc.”

            You’ve supported the abortions of millions of unborn children – don’t try and defend it. Pure hypocrisy.

            “as I define it??? it was Mussolini who stated “Fascism should more
            appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and
            corporate power””

            This will take a while… Here’s what Mussolini wrote (with the help of Giovanni Gentile) in 1933’s entry for the Italian Encyclopedia on the definition of fascism:

            “Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the
            development of humanity quite apart from political considerations
            of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility
            of perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism
            — born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice
            in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension
            all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples
            who have courage to meet it. All other trials are substitutes,
            which never really put men into the position where they have to
            make the great decision — the alternative of life or death. The Fascist accepts life and loves it, knowing nothing of and despising suicide: he rather conceives of life as duty and struggle and conquest, but above all for others — those who are at hand and those who are far distant, contemporaries, and those who will come after. Fascism [is] the complete opposite of Marxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production. Fascism, now and always, believes in holiness and in heroism; that is to say, in actions influenced by no economic motive, direct or indirect. And if the economic conception of history be denied, according to which theory men are no more than puppets, carried to and fro by the waves
            of chance, while the real directing forces are quite out of their
            control, it follows that the existence of an unchangeable and
            unchanging class-war is also denied – the natural progeny of the
            economic conception of history. And above all Fascism denies that
            class-war can be the preponderant force in the transformation
            of society. After Socialism, Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology, and repudiates it, whether in its theoretical premises or in its practical application. Fascism denies that the majority,
            by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society;
            it denies that numbers alone can govern by means of a periodical
            consultation, and it affirms the immutable, beneficial, and fruitful
            inequality of mankind, which can never be permanently leveled
            through the mere operation of a mechanical process such as universal
            suffrage. Fascism denies, in democracy, the absurd conventional untruth of political equality dressed out in the garb of collective irresponsibility, and the myth of “happiness” and indefinite progress given that the nineteenth century was the century of Socialism, of Liberalism, and of Democracy, it does not necessarily follow that the twentieth century must also be a century of Socialism, Liberalism and Democracy: political doctrines pass, but humanity remains, and it may rather be expected that this will be a century of authority a century of Fascism. For if the nineteenth century was a century of individualism it may be expected that this will be the century of collectivism and hence the century of the State. The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its
            character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State
            as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups
            are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the
            State. The conception of the Liberal State is not that of a directing
            force, guiding the play and development, both material and spiritual,
            of a collective body, but merely a force limited to the function
            of recording results: on the other hand, the Fascist State is
            itself conscious and has itself a will and a personality — thus
            it may be called the “ethic” State. The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is
            essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual,
            but the State alone. For Fascism, the growth of empire, that is to say the expansion of the nation, is an essential manifestation of vitality, and
            its opposite a sign of decadence. Peoples which are rising, or
            rising again after a period of decadence, are always imperialist;
            and renunciation is a sign of decay and of death. Fascism is the
            doctrine best adapted to represent the tendencies and the aspirations
            of a people, like the people of Italy, who are rising again after
            many centuries of abasement and foreign servitude. But empire
            demands discipline, the coordination of all forces and a deeply
            felt sense of duty and sacrifice: this fact explains many aspects
            of the practical working of the regime, the character of many
            forces in the State, and the necessarily severe measures which
            must be taken against those who would oppose this spontaneous
            and inevitable movement of Italy in the twentieth century, and
            would oppose it by recalling the outworn ideology of the nineteenth
            century – repudiated wheresoever there has been the courage to
            undertake great experiments of social and political transformation;
            for never before has the nation stood more in need of authority,
            of direction and order. If every age has its own characteristic
            doctrine, there are a thousand signs which point to Fascism as
            the characteristic doctrine of our time. For if a doctrine must
            be a living thing, this is proved by the fact that Fascism has
            created a living faith; and that this faith is very powerful in
            the minds of men is demonstrated by those who have suffered and
            died for it.”

            In simple terms: the nation (which does include corporations, but also materials, people, homes, families, etc) becomes a religion, not just a merger with corporate interests.

            “uh, no, not where I work” “dude, I haven’t asked about YOUR employment”

            You posted 4 days ago, “I work for USDA, but I oppose empire abroad and the national security/surveillance state at home” So, did you quit all of a sudden? Employment is relevant to this: if you were against tyranny, you’d not be working for them. Also that quip about you being a government troll was surprising accurate. As for my employment, I have 3 jobs plus home production work.

            “no, they’ll just be coming for your supplies”

            Nope! The neighbors are preparing with me. And the best part of our supply is that it multiplies! It can easily provide systems of production for others. I’m not a prepper; I’m an industrialist – the goal is to thrive.

          • Gay Veteran

            “..You’ve supported the abortions of millions of unborn children – don’t try and defend it. Pure hypocrisy….”

            uh, no, I supported the right of women to choose when they have children. Unlike you who want to turn women into slaves.

            “…You posted 4 days ago, “I work for USDA, but I oppose empire abroad and the national security/surveillance state at home” So, did you quit all of a sudden? Employment is relevant to this: if you were against tyranny, you’d not be working for them. Also that quip about you being a government troll was surprising accurate….”

            maybe you don’t understand what USDA stands for? the A is for Agriculture, not the f-ing Pentagon or CIA or NSA.

            and I guess you don’t understand “government troll” since a government troll is PAID to troll, to defend the government

      • Hazel

        Everybody does not get a free pass to heaven. Remission of sins is only possible by the shedding of blood.
        “In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood,
        and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” Heb 9:22
        And God became man (Jesus) and shed His blood for everyone, but they must repent and accept.
        To say everyone gets a free pass without Jesus is to say God is a liar.
        Repent and accept the free gift offered out of love.

        • Nemnor

          Hazel, you stated – “…To say everyone gets a free pass without Jesus is to say God is a liar….”.

          Please keep in mind that the Christian Bible is not the only religious book in existence, and that they all have significant differences concerning who and what God is and what God said (or did not say). Other religions have the SAME strong belief in their (holy) book like the genuine Christians appear to have.

          Hence, what might be a “truth” to some, might be a “lie” to others.

          • GSOB

            LOLOLOL
            You are really stupid.

          • Hazel

            Yes, but Christianity is the only religion where God reaches out to man, is made a servant, and dies for him. All other religions have man trying to work towards perfection or their deity.

  • df NJ

    I would like to see us close our military bases in Germany. The base rents are astronomical and pay for free healthcare for the entire German population. WWII is over. I think it’s time we pull out.

    • Gay Veteran

      I agree with Gerald Celente:

      bring the troops home
      seal the borders
      rebuild America
      NO foreign entanglements

  • VigilanteCaregiver

    Here’s my idea from a previous article: we stop with the environmentalist bull#$%& and open up our raw material reserves under control of the states ($120 Trillion worth); the states auction off lands and rights to US-only corporations and locals. At the same time move control of the dollar to the Treasury Department – the Constitutionally legal printer, and reverse engineer the dollar into a mix of domestic precious metals mining/production and domestic energy production (the petro-dollar becomes the commodity dollar) to restore actual value to it. This will cause problems, yes; but in the long run will buffer the US from this derivatives avalanche and allow us to rebuild our economy. This transition can be done in a month.

    I did take the absence of gold in the federal reserve into account this time – we link it to all precious metals.

    But, this also means we, the people, will need to put the screws to our leaders, bureaucrats, and courts – with no room for negotiations. They will resist; and impeachment petitions for all government folks should be begun before putting the pressure on – that should put a scare in ’em.

    • df NJ

      All the major corporations are internationally owned.

      Contrary to the endless propaganda, some people believe raising taxes will fix our economy:

      “The top tax rate that a person pays is referred to as their “marginal tax rate” (in our worker’s case 28%). So what happens if the top marginal tax rate on people making over $357,700 goes up from its current 35% to, for example, the Eisenhower-era 91%?

      For over 120 million American workers who don’t earn over $357,700/year, it won’t mean a thing. But for the tiny handful of millionaires and billionaires who have promoted The Great Tax Con, it will bite hard. And that’s why they spend millions to make average working people freak out about increases in the top tax rates.

      Income taxes as the “Great Stabilizer”

      Beyond fairness and holding back the Landed Gentry the Founders worried about (America had no billionaires in today’s money until after the Civil War, with John D. Rockefeller being our first), there’s an important reason to increase to top marginal tax rate, and to do so now.

      Novelist Larry Beinhart was the first to bring this to my attention. He looked over the history of tax cuts and economic bubbles, and found a clear relationship between the two. High top marginal tax rates (generally well above 60%) on rich people actually stabilize the economy, prevent economic bubbles from forming, prevent economic crashes, and lead to steady and sustained economic growth (and steady and sustained wage growth for working people).

      On the other hand, when top marginal rates drop below 50 percent, the opposite happens. As Beinhart noted in a November 17, 2008 post on the Huffington Post, the massive Republican tax cuts of the 1920s (from 73% to 25%) led directly to the Roaring ’20s stock market bubble, temporary boom, and then the crash and Republican Great Depression of 1929.

      Rates on the very rich went back up into the 70-90% range from the 1930s to the 1980s. As a result, the economy grew steadily; for the first time in the history of our nation we went 50 years without a crash or major bank failure; and working people’s wages increased enough to produce the strongest middle class this nation has ever seen.

      Then came Reaganomics.

      Reagan cut top marginal rates on millionaires and billionaires from 74% down to 38% and there was an immediate surge in the markets – followed by the worst crash since the Great Depression and the failure of virtually the entire nation’s savings and loan banking system.

      Bush I cut taxes, and the nation fell into a severe recession while debt soared and wages for working people fell.

      Things stabilized somewhat when Clinton slightly raised taxes on the very rich, but W. Bush dropped them again – including taking taxes on unearned income (interest and dividends – the “income” that people like W. born with a trust fund “earn” as they sit around the pool waiting for the dividend check to arrive in the mail) down to a top rate of 15%. (That’s right – trust fund babies like Bush and Scaife pay a MAXIMUM 15% federal income tax on their dividend and interest income, thanks to the second Bush tax cut.) The result of this surge in easy money for the wealthy, combined with deregulation in the financial markets, was the “froth” Greenspan worried about and led us straight into the Second Republican Great Depression, ongoing today.

      The math is really pretty simple. When the uber-rich are heavily taxed, economies prosper and wages for working people steadily rise. When taxes are cut for the rich, working people suffer and economies turn into casinos.”

      • robert

        Presidents do NOT raise or lower taxes. They sign or veto Congress passed laws. The problem is that congress members benefit from low taxes and get rich from lobbyists who they go to work for once they leave congress. If you are looking to blame high or low taxes on someone, look to congress.

        • VigilanteCaregiver

          All the more reason to have the impeachment petitions ready to go before pressuring them. If they don’t work in our favor – they’re gone in disgrace; period. We have no right to take their dirty money unless there’s evidence to prove it’s ill gotten.

        • df NJ

          I’m not sure what actually works. I just thought it was interesting to see an opinion and rationale for higher taxes that was completely different than the gospel we hear everyday about raising taxes.

      • VigilanteCaregiver

        We can restrict it to local corporations only. This is easy to do with specific legislation. International corporations shouldn’t be included in this.

    • Gay Veteran

      yeah, who cares what it does to the environment

      • VigilanteCaregiver

        You troll for the environmentalist movement too! HA!

        • Gay Veteran

          aren’t you supposed to be a steward of the planet, to pass it on to your children?

          or maybe you have another planet to go to? like Kolob?

  • toodorky

    An airlift to Greece reminiscent of Berlin after WW2 during its blockade

    But who would volunteer and who would provide the funding.
    Darn sure wouldn’t be the UN or NATO

    • df NJ

      Chinese and Russian humanitarian aid. That would be a twist!

      • toodorky

        Ditto

        • df NJ

          At some point we became the WWII Germans.

          • toodorky

            99.999 % there. But no doubt some Socialist (Communist) thrown into the mix to make things more interesting or an excuse for conflict . Barbed wire for the extremes of either

          • Gay Veteran

            no, more like we became the Soviets

  • Chocolatini

    Whoever wrote this piece is forgetting all that loaned money will go unpaid, and will hurt some financial bankers where it counts. it won’t be just Greece having a crisis. Greece will be better off telling the bankers where to go. Take some pointers from Iceland.

    Usury should be illegal. Screw the bankers.

    • Nemnor

      You stated – “…Usury should be illegal…. AND, I agree with you 110%. (lol)

      However, please be aware that Usury is very much part of the NORMAL functioning of the world-wide Capitalist economic system.

      To permanently stamp out “Usury” would require a fundamental change away from Capitalism in ALL it’s forms (“free market’ or not).

      • DANA

        Who needs usury when you can just use the government to confiscate money from those who produce and give it to those in “need”. You dislike bad banking practices, good, but how can you fear banks/bankers and their power, and not fear government power and corruption, which is unlimited because they have access to our money through governance.

        • Nemnor

          Please be intellectually honest. Can you?

          I am also aware of (and against) corrupt Governments. And, especially so, as I am very much aware that Governments are often controlled and manipulated by “the 1%” – which includes those engaged in massive “usury” and other parasitic schemes.

          • GSOB

            LOLOL

            Its the heart of man that is deceitful and corrupt. only God can know it.

            You need a heart transplant.

  • Priszilla

    The German army is back in Ukraine. For two large war ganes to impress Russia.

    • Gay Veteran

      Russia is laughing

  • Wally

    They can’t give the Greece a deal if they do then Spain, Italy, Portugal and on will want the same deal. I don’t know if it will be insane civil unrest. The 61% that voted no I think had a good understanding of the ramifications of voting no. They were tired of getting raped by the ECB. Those 61% will not riot, if they do then they should have voted yes. The 39% who voted yes well yea they are going to be pissed but they are the minority in this.

    Maybe I am way off but this is what I am thinking. The No vote, the exit from the Euro are all planned collapses. Cyprus was a test. Greece is the first domino. Let Greece collapse then Spain, then Italy and on. This is the start of the end game.

    • df NJ

      The Greeks should just give all their public pension funds to the Germans and let their old people starve because austerity is good for the economy.

  • Wally

    I hate the satanists ruling the earth right now. The elite those that think they are bigger than God. I have one scripture to share and this more than any other scripture I lean on in my hatred and that is: Romans 14:11 – As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God. That’s right you illuminati scum you brood of vipers you Satan worshipers, yes that means you Henry Kissinger and David Rockafeller, George Soros, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Bill Ayers and on and on. You pedophiles that steal and sell our children like the Royal Family ties with Jimmy Savile and you lowlife sub humans that ran Bohemian Grove…YOU WILL ALL BOW BEFORE GOD AND GIVE ACCOUNT FOR YOUR LIVES!

    • GSOB

      Pray for thy enemies.
      Pray for our leaders.
      Pray for all men.
      When you grow in Christ and love what God loves, you will also hate what God hates.
      Can’t have one without the other.
      There is a love that God hates.

  • A spartan woman

    The biggest problem in Greece were and still is all that puppet governments and all the corrupted politicians who “worship” NWO

    ‘s agenda.

    Greece is a rich country. Oil has been detected in Ionian and Aegean sea, there is gold in Paggaios mountain and other rare metals as well. There is a goldmine in Skouries Chalkidiki (in north Greece) but all the profit goes to a Canadian company that owns it, because the previous government simply sold it out through ΤΑΙΠΕΔ=TAIPED. TAIPED is an organisation made by government during the austerity years in order to sell national sources to private investors. Tourism and shipping ( Greece is still number 1 in commercial shipping) bring billions of euro in the country. The weather and climatic conditions in general are ideal to grow almost any kind of plant etc, etc. BUT:

    Before we enter the Eurozone PM kostas Simitis , his “gang” and Goldman Sachs “cooked” all the Greek financial in order to enter easily. I don’t think and I don’t believe that other European leaders did’t know about that. Because if they didn’t , that makes them totally stupid and therefore dangerous to rule their country.

    When the austerity started back in 2009-10, it started to affect our lives little by little. Wages and pensions were cut, farmers were funded by european money to stop cultivating and put solar pannels on their fields, major airports, harbors , puplic services, land was about to be sold out through TAIPED but everything stoped when Tsipras was elected.

    Tsipras and others in the government are new politicians not corrupted (yet). There is no evidence of corruption that can be used by other Europeans to blackmail them in order to sign any “aggreement” that the other side wants. I’m saying that, because all the previous governments, PASOK and New Democracy who rule Greece 40 years, are totally corrupted and used to sign everything the other Europeans want, because they didn’t want to go to jail. Siemens and some other German enterprises were given illegally money (in suitcases) all the previous years to them, to prefer their products and services. Corrupted politicians used to take the suitcases, buying their goodies and paying them double or triple the actual price, using tax money. But Germans used to keep a record on that, blackmailing them. Lagard list is one of these records.

    Keep in mind that US, Germany (that is the EU nowadays) and Russia ‘fight’ for the
    economic and geostrategic power, so things are not good not only for us,
    but also the rest of the world.

    The greek referendum had a simple question. If we agree (yes) or not (no) with the last European program whose agenda is Greece’s grave.

    As a nation we have made A LOT of mistakes. But who doesn’t?

    I don’t know how this is going to end. I pray to God all this global mess reach an end for the benefit of the people.

    • Avner

      Don’t pay attention to the naysayers who say you should just do as your told by some scummy bankers. You guys are doing right by standing up and saying no. Just remember.. like I posted up eariler.. our Neocon coup master Vicky Nuland is in your country. If you exercise your rights to cast your lots with whoever you wish, and if those wishes are contrary to our government, she’ll be involved in trying to turn your country into another Ukraine or Syria. Especially since you mentioned the petroleum in your country.. it does come down to pipelines after all. So, keep your eyes open, your lives really depend on it.

    • victor

      I hope You will keep us posted, on daily life

      • A spartan woman

        I’m afraid this is quite difficult. I have a lot of daily housework, and a 10 year old son who “hates” watching his mother chating on the internet. Not to mention that It takes me quite some time to post something in English, since english is not the language I speak or write.

        But If I have something to say then I will post it for sure!

        Best regards from Greece!

    • K

      If you are truly who you say you are. There are those who say Greece signed off, on any further reparations from Germany. If so, I have reason to believe it was under duress. Perhaps there is someone in Greece, who can look into this. My best wishes.

      • A spartan woman

        K,
        All the things I said about my country are things that I live and others are news from the press, tv , internet, Friends and relatives who live all around Greece.

        What i Know about German war reparations is that back in 1953 Greece agreed that, as long as Germany would be divided ( you know east and west), we won’t ask reparations. But if Germany was united again and stands on her feet (economically and socially), the Greek demands of Greek reparations will be “activated”.

        Germany was united again in 1989-90. The Greek government did nothing, because our “beloved” politicians did ‘business’ with Germans.

        The demands of greek reparations are still “activated”.

        Believe me, if Germans were saying a truly, deeply SORRY, we Greeks would have forgiven them, even me, whose (male) relatives were shot to death by Germans in 12-13-1943 in Kalavryta masacre.

    • Nemnor

      A spartan woman, unfortunately, the ONLY real solution begins with a fundamental change away from the current Capitalist system in Greece, the EU and the World.

      There is NO real (permanent) solution within the now decadent world-wide Capitalist economic system.

      However, it is more likely that the Capitalist system plunge the World into WW-III (eventually), before we might have the needed fundamental change.

  • XSANDIEGOCA

    Why should the Greeks give in?

    They have endured five years of austerity. What do the Germans offer? More austerity. More suffering. For what end? How will the Greek’s lives get any better? Germany sucks the life out the patient but the patient dies? I see the advantages to the Banksters but I see nothing for the average Greek whose wife is selling herself on the street to put food on the table. Did you see the picture of the old pensioner who simply collapsed in tears outside that bank. What did he do to deserve such a fate? At some point, austerity becomes cruelty. We are there.

    If I were Greece, I would default. Their situation is completely untenable. How we got here is a story for another day. You can not pay so… walk away. Go back to the Drachma. How can it be any worse? So far, the game has been Extend and Pretend but there is no more blood to squeeze out of this stone. Germany is trying to put an entire country into Debtors Prison but they share responsibility for this as well.

    Bottom line, the Euro Project is now all about the Banksters and nothing but suffering for the masses. This strikes me as a very bad deal. Do I have to remind the Germans that this was how Hitler got his start? When the German Economy collapsed and the authorities were impotent to do anything, he stepped forward and was eagerly embraced.

    What scares me is that this is but a foreshadowing of what is to come for all of us. Do not ask for whom the bell tolls.

    • GSOB

      Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.

      There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.

      So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”

      When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”

      And Moses said, “Here I am.”

      “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”

      &

      “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. ”

      +

      Romans 6:6
      For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin–

      Romans 8:10
      But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.

      &
      Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire.

      • Mike Adams

        No, but it may be an absent topic.

        • GSOB

          Kindle a fire then. Fan into flame.
          We didn’t start the fire.
          It was already burning
          when the world started turning

          • Mike Adams

            No, but the Lord started the fire.

      • Tom Hansen

        This is not the time or place for a discussion on biblical passages or interpretations.. it changes the topic at hand . go to another blog to discuss this .. what you are doing is called the straw man or red herring .. and believe me it is not helping your cause which is to convert I assume..

        • GSOB

          Thank You for trying to re-parent me according to your understanding.
          You must be amongst the unregenerate to deny Christ.
          The word of salvation has come.
          Tell me Tom Hansen, have you received God’s salvation that He has prepared for those who love Him?
          What could be of more importance?
          Your money or you life?
          I know, I know….
          You’re thinking about it….

      • Gay Veteran

        Polly want a cracker?

    • Avner

      But a foreshadowing indeed there. I just can’t wait to see the looks on the lefties faces when their debit cards stop working, and the looks on the righties faces when the cops point guns at them for trying to get their money out of the bank. Stupid is as stupid does…

    • Mike Adams

      This is not about Gereece.

    • Nemnor

      XSANDIEGOCA, I also AGREE (more or less) with what you stated.

      From my understanding, however, the wider economic system in Greece, the EU and the World (i.e. the decadent Capitalist economic system) is the main root cause of the major economic issues in Greece and the rest of the World in general.

      • GSOB

        decadent….
        LOL
        your favorite buzz word…
        LOL
        How shallow can a socialist get?
        Short sighted and unsustainable…
        LOL

        • Nemnor

          Well… If I am not mistaken you believe “free market” Capitalism would work, but you do not have the proper (the real) answer as to why the same “free market” Capitalism of the past eventually became decadent.

          You believe it is simply corrupt politicians and/or (evil) elite groups that destroyed Capitalism. But that is because you do not have a true understanding of what makes the Capitalist economic system “tick”.

          Because we live in a World with virtually and practically LIMITED resource and market, and because of competition and the drive to expand Capital base, the Capitalist system was ALWAYS “destined’ to reach a stage of general over-production. With over-production, it is virtually impossible to generate long-term recovery (because as soon as the system “heats up” it goes back into a period of deepened crisis within the on-going crisis.

          The Capitalist system has been in an on-going economic crisis from since the late-60s/early-70s – which was the end of the “reconstruction boom” following WW-II and at a time when the other leading Capitalist economies began to “catch up” to the USA and compete for a bigger/better share of the LIMITED World’s “economic pie”.

          The likes of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher VAINLY try to fix the Capitalist system (they were so shortsighted!!). But now, in hindsight, you know what I always KNEW – that they were destined to fail, as the USA and the UK, etc. are now in a worse economic situation, than in the 70s and 80s. (right?)

          The state of general over-production is one of the main reason the Capitalist system is now decadent and at a “dead end”. It is a problem that can NOT be solved within Capitalism, and as the years and decades go by (and if you live long enough), you will get to KNOW this to be true.

          The issue is that, by the time the average Human becomes aware of the truth about the Capitalist system, they are usually already “old” and ready to “give up the ghost” (unfortunately).

          • GSOB

            LOLOLOLOLOL

          • Entristecido

            Amen (Non religious) +++100. The fact here is anybody can formally answer you. Only “communist”, “socialist”, or “LOL” are the reply.

      • XSANDIEGOCA

        No argument. How did Greece get into such a situation? Yes, they did it too themselves but the ECB played a much bigger role.

    • Gay Veteran

      leave the rest of the American NATO vassals and lease some naval ports to Russia and China

      • XSANDIEGOCA

        Indeed! The Piraeus is a magnificent port. Putin and China would pay a lot for it.

  • krinks

    Imagine for a moment that this is all theater. Think of what would happen if a man rose on the scene and declared all interest to be illegal and immoral. Prosperity would soon return. The world would love him and worship him as God. The Banksters have played their part and their role is nearly over. With the Pope pushing evolution and global warming it isn’t too much of a stretch to think that he would worship this man and encourage his followers to do the same.

    • df NJ

      Any leader who destroys the power of the monarchy is as_ssas_sinated.

    • GSOB

      ….”a man rose on the scene and declared all interest to be illegal and immoral..” –

      Many would follow such a misdirected man because…..

      “For men who set their hearts on being wealthy expose themselves to temptation. They fall into one of the world’s traps, and lay themselves open to all sorts of silly and wicked desires, which are quite capable of utterly ruining and destroying their souls. For loving money leads to all kinds of evil, and some men in the struggle to be rich have lost their faith and caused themselves untold agonies of mind.”

      There is nothing immoral about charging interest on a loan.

      • krinks

        Check the Law of Moses sport.

        • GSOB

          Go on… spin out what you are trying to say… go on… teach me something you think you know and I’ll tell you if you are correct in your interpretation….
          Make my day…

          • krinks

            Do a search and read it for yourself. Interest on a loan was forbidden.

      • Nemnor

        GSOB, even if you hold the thought – “There is nothing immoral about charging interest on a loan”, I ask you to try “thinking outside the box”, and imagine a NEW and different system in which goods and services are produced to meet the ABUNDANT needs of society – as the primary end-purpose of production.

        Such a NEW and different system requires a higher level of awareness and enlightenment than the average Human.

        If you are one of those people having difficulty imagining a NEW and superior economic system that does NOT include or allow usury, then I humbly suggest you may try some meditation on the matter to help raise your awareness.

  • Ed

    Or …. Greece can print Euros to supply their ATMs. Europe chucks Greece out of the EU. Greece defaults on all it’s debts rather than get just getting a debt haircut and forges closer links with Russia and China.
    In the end Germany will have to decide how much they want the EU to survive and if they do, how much their savers are willing to pay for it.

    • df NJ

      Greece would be better off printing their own interest free money. And then use tourist money to pay imports of petrol. Greek would become the cheapest place to have a vacation. It would be a huge jobs program for the 50% of the people currently unemployed under 44 years old.

    • A spartan woman

      Neither Greece, nor any other European country can print Euros. Only ECB can.

      There’s a rumor here in Greece (I don’t know if it’s true) that Central Bank of Greece has already printed Drahmas.
      If nagotiations fail, then the ATM’s and all Greek financial market will have the Drahma.

      Tsipras has already made a deal with Russians. Russians have already “activate” the BRICKS to support Greek economy.

      Obama can see the danger, that of a western country join Russians. Last week The IMF gave to greek government a top secret report about greek debt. Greek government can use it in nagotiations. He did that, in order to make Merkel be more “soft” with us.

      • Avner

        Ms. Spartan Woman…

        You have our Neocon coup master in your country, Victoria Nuland. She will attempt to Ukraineize your country. Be careful.

        • A spartan woman

          Actually, Greece is in danger.

          Greek Generals from the central headquarters of Greek army have made a big report (a book) analysing those dangers. The title of the book is ” Greece is in danger. Save her”. This book is for sale only by an ex-member of the greek parliament (his name is Kyriakos Velopoulos). He left a promising career being disgusted of the greek political life.

          Sometimes I watch his show in a small non mainstream tv channel.

          It was yesterday night when he was analysing the Greek situation.
          He said: ” Greeks wake up, and do not let them (the new politicians ) fool you once more. Our territory is the “battlefield’ among US, Germany, and Russia. Germany and US have a secret war right now (their secret services), who is going to dominate Greece.
          Velopoulos continued his speech saying that CIA wants to change the situation in middle East and that is funding ISIS in order to make an american pipeline from Qatar through all the territory that is controlled by ISIS.

          He continued saying that the new greek government gets orders from americans and that if we(Greeks) are not carefull we will face ISIS in our country.

          ISIS has given, in public, a map with the state they want to make. Greece and almost all Balcanic states are included!

          Greece is surrounded mostly by muslim population. Turkey is a muslim country and a lot of muslim population exist in Albania, Scopia, and Boulgaria as well. We also have some greek muslim population in north Greece (in Thraki) although the majority of Greeks are orthodox Christians.

          When the war in Syria started, the number of illegal refugees (most of them from the middle East) in Greece has been increased. Since the new Government was elected, their number has been increased dramatically. The new Government wants to make a law to “legalize” them!!!!! My fear is that among them might be Isis fighters and if Greek economic suffocation doesn’t work any more ……………….. .

          Actually I don’t know what to believe any more. The only thing I Know for sure is that my country is a state of imperialists.

  • Chris Sky

    Banskter: “so you voted “no” on our Bank Deposit Confiscation plan… that’s cute… we’ll just keep the banks closed, and put even greater withdrawl limits.. .and once you’re starving, we’ll ask you if it’s ok if we take half your savings, or give you access to none of your savings.”

    and of course…the Greeks will fold like cyprus.. and every other Euro nation to follow.. why? Because if they people werent’ smart enough to see this PLANNED in ADVANCE.. they definitely aren’t smart enough/strong to get them selves out of it.

    • df NJ

      “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.” Thomas Jefferson

    • Mike Smithy

      Or the angry mobs can take charge and storm the banks with pitchforks, battering rams and crowbars.

      • Chris Sky

        LOL Why do you think the UK started the “Save a life surrender your knife” program to help “banning knives”… if you take away the “angry mob’s” guns, knives, pitchforks… they can storm the castle and be easily dealt with!

  • Rick

    The Greeks are not innocent here with their crazy spending, and over-bloated government pensions. But then neither are we innocent in America, and you can say that about most of the world these days. However, the real culprit is the illegal derivative trading that’s been allowed over the last 2 decades. What the governed need to do is exactly what Iceland did a few years ago when the UK came knocking on their door to collect about $400,000 from each and every citizen. They investigated where all this debt originated, and found that about 93% of it came from deals their Minister of Finance had made with the UK via derivatives. Once they had tucked him neatly behind bars, they decisively told the UK they would pay back the 7% they owed. This actually then allowed Iceland to lower tax rates, which stimulated the economy, which is exactly what the elites controling the big banks DO NOT want. They want an indebted, controlled people, a begging class of people, not a free people. So let’s just stop playing this “made up” derivatives game with our government officials, and instead start holding them accountable. We need the majority to start standing standing against the very minute minority who are making these secret deals and falsely signing us on…

    • df NJ

      The Greeks are innocent. The shyster bankers are ripping everyone off with corruption. If you want to see how the shyster Wall Street bankers are raping the public pensions in this country google “Looting the Pension Funds”. The bankers are criminals and there are no laws or police to prevent them from raping us.

      • Rick

        I don’t believe either party is totally innocent, but I do believe your take is where much of the blame should lay. You are right about pensions, and it is only going to get worse until we stand up and ID the criminal government officials in bed with the corrupt corporate CEOs.

        • df NJ

          Old people living with dignity cannot be as bad as ruthless shyster banksters raping public pensions for their own personal gain. Most people who work for a living have a modest life with modest incomes. Most people living on fixed income barely have enough for food and shelter. I refuse to blame old people for this corruption. I just don’t trust the government. The government is run by criminals.

          • Rick

            Neither do I blame the old, and in much of Europe, including Greece at one time, people could and would retire and rely on their government to take care of them starting at age 55. I certainly wouldn’t consider a 55 year old to be “old”. But many of the “old” population now, retired 25 years ago at age 55, when they should have been working, so they are not totally innocent either. Face it, it’s a big problem with many legitimate fingers pointed at many legitimate culprits. The difference which you will most likely agree with is that the government officials should be in jail, while the old people were just taking advantage of the way the system was set up at the time. Wrong none-the-less, however, not a crime like we are seeing committed by governments all over the world today.

        • algol2000

          The idea of “Pensions” itself is the problem. Someone has convinced you to give part of your hard-earned income to him so that he can gamble with the money (mind you, he has it to play with for decades), while you work your butt off? This in itself is fraud. If you want to secure your future, why not invest in assets that you can control all by yourself directly?

    • Mike Smithy

      Amen, +100.

    • Nemnor

      The mass of the Greek Working Class people are INNOCENT! Especially when you consider that virtually ALL wealth created/produced in Greece (and in the rest of the World) are created/produced by the mass of Working Class people. (right?)

      Everybody else (and certainly “the 1%”) are more or less parasites, existing off the “sweat and blood” (labor) of the mass of the Working Class people. (And this is NOT “communist rhetoric” – this is the REALITY in the economic system we all live under).

      • GSOB

        lol
        totally delusional….
        in denial….
        leftist….
        LOL

      • Rick

        I think this is a pretty accurate take. I would not call the working class innocent when many can and do retire at age 55, placing a tremendous burden on the younger generations.

        • Nemnor

          Those who want to retire at 55 are still innocent, as it is NATURAL for any normal person to want (to seek) the abundant life. (The SAME abundant life “the 1%” seem to be enjoying or are seeking).

          Also, please keep in mind that many of those who want to retire at 55, did work their “butt off” for most of their lives, and often for minimum wages!!

          The real issue is the Capitalist economic system itself (“free market” or not), which is structured in such a way that MUCH of the Wealth created/produced by the Working Class, concentrates into the hands of a FEW parasites (i.e. “the 1%”).

          It is the (decadent) Capitalist system itself that ultimately place a “tremendous burden” on EVERY generation!!

          • Rick

            Now that I cannot agree with. What’s your better solution? Free hand outs to those that have made poor choices over the course of their lives? Yes the 1% are rich, but they are not all bad people. However, I do agree the ultra 1%, or the elites (0.001%) do control the world, are oppressive, and are evil. That’s exactly why republicans and democrats in the general population have to rise above the media instilled fear and come together as one people to throw those criminals we’ve elected whether Rs or Ds, behind bars, or worse. After all, once we elect them, they play on the same team, why can’t we, the masses turn the tables on them?

      • VigilanteCaregiver

        Then make things for yourself.

    • DANA

      Exactly, it’s corruption and greed from top to bottom, and this corruption and greed has done untold damage to peoples cultures, faith and posterity. We need to get back to what matters and stop with this “global” economy, diversity, multicultural nonsense. Countries and cultures need to stand or fall on their own. Successful ideas shouldn’t be made to carry bad ideas.

      • Rick

        Dana you nailed it. I would only add corporations to your list as well. We once had bankruptcy laws for companies that couldn’t make it. Now they just default to “too big to fail”. I think that needs to go away also. Let them fail, and let the next entrepeneur take its place.

  • Cal Wayback

    Speaking of 1941. The Greek military campaign delayed Germany’s attack on Russia by 6 weeks. Churchill said later these 6 weeks were the most crucial point of the war. The Germans would have taken Moscow before the winter set in with 6 weeks of additional good weather and forced what was left of the Red Army east of the Ural mountains. Now the Greek financial panic will deliver another knock out blow to Germany and the rest of the EU. My how history repeats itself in such unusual ways.

    • df NJ

      Don’t the Germans owe the Greeks war reparations from WWII?

  • df NJ

    The Greeks need to increase the retirement age until after a person dies. That would fix the pension problem.

  • Midwesterner

    I am not sure who to back in this situation. I have read, that in Greece you can retire at a young age, in your 50’s & collect a pension. So if that’s true than the problem is on the backs of the Greek people, as nothing is free. There is no corporation or government that can pay a retiree for 25 or 30 years a percentage of what they made while they worked AND pay a person to replace them. Not possible.
    I have also read that the money that is being paid back, a good portion is going to interest. So if that’s true the fault is on the back on the banks. They are entitled to make a profit but in some cases, you have to rethink the way things are done.

    • Nemnor

      The real permanent solution is OUTSIDE of the current Capitalist system in Greece and the entire World.

      The solution begins with a NEW economic system in which goods and services are produced to meet the ABUNDANT genuine needs of society – as the primary end-purpose of production. This fundamental change requires a higher level of awareness and enlightenment of the Human Race.

  • Kim

    I have zero love for the ECB and euro zone leaders but the Greeks should have banned money transfers out of Greece a long time ago. They should have enforced their tax laws too. Greece is partially responsible for this mess. And the IMF, ELA, ECB-why give Greece more money that they can’t pay back? I see no solution to this other tha. The Greeks just abandoning their post-modern lifestyle and going back a couple centuries. There doesn’t seem to be any alternative.

    • willkes

      Greece is totally responsible for this. They did this to themselves.

      • df NJ

        Don’t the Germans owe the Greeks war reparations from WWII? Germans should pay off their own debts.

        • willkes

          Umm No.

          • Nemnor

            I would say they do. Germany must pay back for the massive destruction they brought upon Greece, during WW-II

            It is just like those of us in the USA, who descended from the White Ruling Class and (White) Slave Owners, should rightfully pay reparations to the Black descendants of Black slaves that existed in the USA.

            In general, the White race in the USA did UNJUSTLY benefit from centuries of slavery upon the Black race in the USA.

            Even if you might identify poor Whites in the USA – who are struggling just as much as poor Blacks, this is an unavoidable symptom of decadent US Capitalism. It is still true that much of the (collective) wealth of the White race in the USA, came from centuries of slavery upon the Black race.

          • djc

            What about my White Yankee ancestors who gave up their lives to free the slaves? As their descendant shouldn’t I be compensated for destroying slavery rather than be punished because my ancestors are European?

            I do agree with A LOT of your criticisms of capitalism though. Crony Capitalism iIS destroying itself.

      • Gay Veteran

        banksters lent money to a country they KNEW could not pay it back, so let the banksters take the losses

        • Nemnor

          You stated – “…banksters lent money to a country they KNEW could not pay it back…”.

          Such irrational behavior is a SYMPTOM of the decadent Capitalist economic system.

          In fact, as time goes by, we will observe more and more irrational “investment” practices, as the Capitalists desperately seek to make “profits”, in the relentlessly declining Capitalist economic system.

          The state of general over-production is making it more and more difficult for the Capitalists to generate profits. Hence, the reason for the mad/irrational risk taking.

  • GSOB

    Let this be a warning for the ‘nanny’ or ‘welfare’ state. In other words, let this be a warning to America.
    The ‘state’ is the employer that’s growing in America.
    America used to be a republic and not a democracy.
    Sad, when you think about it.
    Most don’t understand the difference.
    A republic is ‘rule by law’. Everyone is equal under the law.
    In a democracy,… its man ruled by men.
    Our country has forsaken God and His law.
    Repent people, while there is still time.
    When He comes, He comes in judgment.

    • Nemnor

      GSOB, it is (firstly) the decayed and decaying US Capitalist system that “compelled” the State to become more and more an “Employer” and a “nanny’/”welfare” Capitalist state, and including even bailing out PRIVATE companies that FAILED (to save the very same Capitalist system, they hope).

      You speak about an “America” that NEVER existed, as there was NO time in the history of the USA, when “everyone was equal under the law” (that was simply an ideal that was NEVER realized).

      Also, you imply that there was a time when the USA was following God and His law. Again, there was NO time in the history of the USA when it was with God and following His law (Godliness was simply a fantasy, as the USA was founded with an economy based upon Chattel slavery – a cruel and most Godless period in US history!!)

  • Cheri

    If Iceland could say “NO” to the banksters, so can Greece.

    • Nemnor

      And so can the USA, the UK and any country in the World in which you have parasitic banking system, along with the usual corrupt government that is controlled by “the 1%”..

  • Shock & Awe

    *********************************************************************************************
    The German siege of Greece? You mean the Rothschild central banking system (the international bankers) siege of Greece.

    It was Goldman Sachs and a corrupt Greek government that assisted in hiding the Greek debt that allowed the Greek government to maneuver around the Maastricht deficit rules. Greece should have never been allowed into the E.U. to begin with.

    From a 2010 Der Spiegel article

    “Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules. At some point the so-called cross currency swaps will mature, and swell the country’s already bloated deficit.”

    “… The number crunchers there are deeply annoyed with Athens. Investigative reports state that important data “cannot be confirmed” or has been requested but “not received.”

    “Creative accounting took priority when it came to totting up government debt. Since 1999, the Maastricht rules threaten to slap hefty fines on euro member countries that exceed the budget deficit limit of three percent of gross domestic product. Total government debt mustn’t exceed 60 percent.”

    “The Greeks have never managed to stick to the 60 percent debt limit, and they only adhered to the three percent deficit ceiling with the help of blatant balance sheet cosmetics. One time, gigantic military expenditures were left out, and another time billions in hospital debt. After recalculating the figures, the experts at Eurostat consistently came up with the same results: In truth, the deficit each year has been far greater than the three percent limit. In 2009, it exploded to over 12 percent.”

    “Now, though, it looks like the Greek figure jugglers have been even more brazen than was previously thought. “Around 2002 in particular, various investment banks offered complex financial products with which governments could push part of their liabilities into the future,” one insider recalled, adding that Mediterranean countries had snapped up such products.”

    “Greece’s debt managers agreed a huge deal with the savvy bankers of US investment bank Goldman Sachs at the start of 2002. The deal involved so-called cross-currency swaps in which government debt issued in dollars and yen was swapped for euro debt for a certain period, to be exchanged back into the original currencies at a later date.”

    So don’t blame the German government or the German people. Blame Goldman Sachs, a corrupt Greek government, and the international bankers and some of us know who THEY are.

    • df NJ

      RE: “Blame Goldman Sachs”

      Maybe if they serpents would stop shoving apples down our throats the world would not be so effed up!

      • Aude Sapere

        Serpents are shoving apples down our throats? Is that suppose to be cryptic? That is really an inane reply to the “Shock & Awe” comment.

        • df NJ

          Google “Looting the Pension Funds” The shysters on Wall Street are raiding the public pension funds. It’s pure greed and corruption. The shyster bankers are destroying this country and no one supports any government to stop them.

    • df NJ

      The single most scariest quote you will ever hear in your life:

      “Give me control of a nation’s money and I care not who makes it’s laws” — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild

      • Nemnor

        This is the general attitude of the Capitalists (particularly the wealthiest Capitalists an the corrupt politicians they control)

  • Randy Townsend

    Like a petulant child defying it’s parents, Greece has said “No”, but just as the parents have all the power, so do the countries financing the Greek nation. Germany should simply do nothing – let Greece drown in their debt. It’s not going to take very much for nations like Spain or Ireland to get the message – and bailing Greece out AGAIN sends the wrong one.

    • df NJ

      I would like to see Germany act like a responsible adult and pay Greece war reparations from WWII that were never paid by Germany.

  • DJohn1

    Greece is slave to the people they owe money to.
    That will become apparent in the weeks to come.
    We also are slaves to those we owe money to.
    That also will become apparent in the weeks to come.

  • HM

    The article states: “We have allowed the global derivatives bubble to become many times larger than the GDP of the entire planet,” What “we”?! I wasn’t a party to it; and nobody I know abetted the derivatives bubble. Let’s put the blame on “them” not “us”. Too bad the banksters will all be in their hidey-holes when this blows up.

    • Nemnor

      You are indeed “a part of it”, IF – you did not make yourself aware of it, OR, if you were aware, you took NO action (within your means) against it.

      However, the only effective action against “derivative bubbles”, and any other financial bubble, is a fundamental change away from Capitalism – a system which, in it’s now Mu>decadent stage, is “compeled” to generate financial bubbles in a VAIN attempt to overcome the state of general over-production.

      • HM

        Please elaborate on what actions you took to curb the international banking cartel. Somehow, I felt at a power disadvantage – if you can imagine such weak, silly thinking.

        • Nemnor

          I already imply what my action was and would be. I am aware that to really get rid of financial bubbles, the World must dismantle Capitalism. This is a HUGE task for the entire World that does not have an inevitable outcome. So part of my “action” involves helping to get people aware of the truth about Capitalism – as only a mass and sustained grass-root DEMOCRATIC action can demolish Capitalism.

          However, in the meantime, more immediate actions I took involved joining organizations that, from time to time, would launch campaigns in the hope of influencing politicians to pass and upheld more appropriate laws to more properly “muzzle” the activities of the Loan Shark Capitalists (for example), and help shield the masses from some of the more extreme effects when a bubble burst. For example, pressuring some local Governments/Authorities to put a moratorium (or ban) on foreclosures, especially for cases where the “bread winner” of a home lost their Job.

          The “immediate” (local) fights against the (worst) effects of Capitalism, can help to raise the anti-capitalist awareness of the masses, and especially so, if your (group) actions directly benefits the oppressed masses.

  • df NJ

    I’m tired of hearing everyone blaming the Greek people for this mess. Old people living with dignity cannot be as bad as ruthless shyster banksters raping public pensions for their own personal gain. Most people who work for a living have a modest life with modest incomes. Most people living on fixed income barely have enough for food and shelter. I refuse to blame old people for this corruption. I just don’t trust the government. The government is run by criminals. And criminals are going to steal.

  • IsReal

    Why don’t they print their own currency then? What prevents them from doing it I wonder.

  • ddduke

    The irony… in 1953 the Greeks forgave the German war reparations debt.

  • david

    Funny how France is supporting Greece. Can you say the kettle calling itself Black? France unemployment rates is close to 20% and for the past 8 years has been running a deficit. Wont be long France will be joining Italy, Spain and Portugal as a bankrupt country. Greece should go to the Drachma and back it by gold and real estate. Thats what the Germans did during Weimar Inflation days.

    • Nemnor

      You are generally correct about France. However, it is really the entire world-wide Capitalist economic system that is relentlessly declining, with NO real permanent solution within the Capitalist system.

  • So if the rest of the Euro zone countries need a bail-out, they will not receive it, anyway. Let’s have people die, in order not to disrupt a faulty economic structure. Who is going to profit from this? Certainly not the people of Europe. So why does Europe exist? To help the rich get their way?

  • grumpyhillbilly

    With everything you must ask yourself who wins? We little people don’t. The Greeks, nor the Germans do. Even many of the financial technocrats won’t. The people behind the bankers and political leaders will. They were going to win no matter what the vote was. It seems they really hate the humanity they got rich off of. Guess they must all be Trotskyist in nature.

    It will be curious to see if the Greeks will cut a deal with the Russians. It would be a fly in the proverbial ointment.

  • smoke57

    The market will in all likelihood have a correction. This will nit be the first time this has happened. When the dust settles it will create a buying opportunity for those who have properly educated themselves. I would rather make money off of the correction than sit in a basement with my doomsday supplies waiting for the sky to fall.

  • Pete

    ‘So yes, the Greeks voted for change, but the Germans still hold the purse strings.’

    No exactly. It is more accurate to say that the Greeks voted for the German taxpayers to continue to subsidize them.

    You see, ‘democracy’ cuts both ways — the Greeks can vote for other people’s money and the ‘other people’ can vote ‘no.’

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